How can atheists remain atheists? (part 2)

[MrZetterlund]

Check this out: youtube.com/watch?v=krNRZf-fzyQ

 

[AntiTheist]

Well, my sound now works, and I finally got around to watching this. It’s not surprising that I’m not impressed by two stories of weird stuff that no one has any explanation for, supernatural or otherwise.

Lots of religions make supernatural claims all the time, and weird stuff happens all the time. For example, here’s a rather famous picture of a Hindu yogi levitating: socioparivar.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/yogi-levitate.jpg

There are, of course, eyewitnesses of this levitation. But guess what? It’s not evidence that levitation is possible, nor is it evidence that Hinduism is true.

To demonstrate that a “miracle” happened, you’d need to produce the effect under controlled, laboratory conditions, so as to rule out misperception, natural causes, or trickery (intentional or not).

Here’s the problem: even if you could get a “holy person” to manifest light or do something else magical under laboratory conditions, it still wouldn’t prove that the religious claims were true. All it would prove is that the person in question has a super power. After all, it could be that the person has some kind of X-Men-like mutant power that science can’t currently understand and that the person attributes the power (falsely) to a particular religion.

This whole “miracles are evidence!” idea is a giant red herring. It’s not going to convince anyone who’s not already convinced by the religion.

And just to head off the obvious, knee-jerk, thoughtless response: my reply is not a “refusal to think outside the box” or a “display of a hard, obstinate heart” or “intellectual hubris.” It’s a refusal to accept claims without proper evidence, in the same way that I would refuse to believe in ghosts after watching an episode of Ghost Hunters.

 

[AJTheMan]

Miracles are largely subjective and open to interpretation. Whereas one person sees a confirmation of their faith, another sees the group mentality. The group mentality can be something odd.

 

[MrZetterlund]

Well, my sound now works, and I finally got around to watching this. It’s not surprising that I’m not impressed by two stories of weird stuff that no one has any explanation for, supernatural or otherwise.

Lots of religions make supernatural claims all the time, and weird stuff happens all the time. For example, here’s a rather famous picture of a Hindu yogi levitating: socioparivar.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/yogi-levitate.jpgThere are, of course, eyewitnesses of this levitation. But guess what? It’s not evidence that levitation is possible, nor is it evidence that Hinduism is true.

You do realize it only takes one eye witness to condemn someone of murder, yes? Yes this IS evidence that levetation is possible. I challenge you to play the game “stiff as a board, light as a feather.” This sort of power is familiar work of satan. Who when known as Moduk was said to be the one who gave “power to the stars” -which were pentagrams.

To demonstrate that a “miracle” happened, you’d need to produce the effect under controlled, laboratory conditions, so as to rule out misperception, natural causes, or trickery (intentional or not).

No, if this was a scientific subject you’d have to be able to make an experement and test it repeatedly. However, this is more along the lines of an investigation. We have eye witnesses (over a thousand) and photographic evidence.

Here’s the problem: even if you could get a “holy person” to manifest light or do something else magical under laboratory conditions, it still wouldn’t prove that the religious claims were true. All it would prove is that the person in question has a super power. After all, it could be that the person has some kind of X-Men-like mutant power that science can’t currently understand and that the person attributes the power (falsely) to a particular religion.

So if I brought Jesus to your house and made Him perform miricals, then you’d accuse Him of being an X-Men before accepting His divinity? Yeah…

 

[AntiTheist]

Yes this IS evidence that levetation is possible. …] This sort of power is familiar work of satan.

You believe that levitation is possible? Well, I can only say that your standard of evidence is significantly lower than mine. You’ve said that you also believe in aliens or UFOs. Do you also believe in Bigfoot, leprechauns, and the Loch Ness Monster? Where do you draw the line in terms of accepting eyewitness testimony? Because all of those phenomena have “eyewitness testimony” associated with them.

More to the point, if you think levitation is real but the “work of satan,” how do you know that you’re the one who’s correct? How do you know that Hinduism isn’t the one, true religion – as demonstrated by this levitation miracle – and that the miracles of your religion aren’t the “work of some rakshasa” (a Hindu spirit)?

We have eye witnesses (over a thousand) and photographic evidence.

This is sufficient to establish that something happened, but to claim that it was a miracle, a suspension of the laws of nature, you would need to rule out the possibilities that there were errors in perception or trickery of an intentional or unintentional nature.

Are you familiar with James Randi’s Million Dollar Challenge? For over thirty years, he offered a million dollars to anyone who could demonstrate any supernatural effect in controlled, laboratory conditions. Do you think anyone ever collected the money?

So if I brought Jesus to your house and made Him perform miricals, then you’d accuse Him of being an X-Men before accepting His divinity? Yeah…

If Jesus, or anyone else, could perform miracles in a controlled, laboratory condition, it would demonstrate that miraculous superpowers exist in this one individual.

It wouldn’t do anything to prove his claim about where his powers come from. There’s no logical way to get from “this power exists; therefore X god claim is the true one” – at the most, you could only demonstrate that a power exists.

For example, let’s say that I could prove to you under controlled conditions that I have the power to transform into a cow. We could verify my claim that my power exists. But if I claimed that the power comes from Hindu gods, no amount of testing could verify that claim.

 

[MrZetterlund]

You believe that levitation is possible? Well, I can only say that your standard of evidence is significantly lower than mine. You’ve said that you also believe in aliens or UFOs. Do you also believe in Bigfoot, leprechauns, and the Loch Ness Monster? Where do you draw the line in terms of accepting eyewitness testimony? Because all of those phenomena have “eyewitness testimony” associated with them.

I have investigated many cases of alien obduction, all testamonies are compatible and over an extensive investigation become typical. There is well documented evidence and it creates a phenomena too great to ignore. My mom used to play with accultist type things such as wiji boards. She does claim that to be a supernatural encounter because the entity she was comunticating with affected the enviorment to proove it’s presence in the room. Also her friend died the next day when she was with the wiji board and when her other friend had it she broke her legs and has trouble with them to this day. So they ditched the wiji board. She also succesfuly played “stiff as a board, light as a feather” and so did my father.
As for the rest of these so-called myths: I haven’t heard of anything about a leprechaun phenomena, or anything about leprechauns for that matter. The lochness monster could just have been a lucky dinosoaur, but last I’ve heard it was made up. I did see good photographic evidence for a dinosuar living just not too long ago (before it even started to decay) and people who live in rainforests claim to see what sounds an awful lot like dinosuars. So I can believe dinosuars are still in existance.

More to the point, if you think levitation is real but the “work of satan,” how do you know that you’re the one who’s correct? How do you know that Hinduism isn’t the one, true religion – as demonstrated by this levitation miracle – and that the miracles of your religion aren’t the “work of some rakshasa” (a Hindu spirit)?

Hm, this is sort of hard to explain. I suppose there’s something I like to call “an authentic God.” Studying theology and mythology, alot of polytheistic gods have characteristics of entities that are compatible with demonology. For example, satan lends certain powers that are unbenaficial to give his followers a sense of fulfillment. We have converts from the accult all the time who say they were lended powers such as this but still felt spiritually empty. If you trace the origins of any religions, you’ll come across a reptilian race of gods who the Bible portrays as satan or the fallen ones. In a way, you can say that all religions are connected.

This is sufficient to establish that something happened, but to claim that it was a miracle, a suspension of the laws of nature, you would need to rule out the possibilities that there were errors in perception or trickery of an intentional or unintentional nature.

Someone already did do that.

Are you familiar with James Randi’s Million Dollar Challenge? For over thirty years, he offered a million dollars to anyone who could demonstrate any supernatural effect in controlled, laboratory conditions. Do you think anyone ever collected the money?

Idk.

If Jesus, or anyone else, could perform miracles in a controlled, laboratory condition, it would demonstrate that miraculous superpowers exist in this one individual.

It wouldn’t do anything to prove his claim about where his powers come from. There’s no logical way to get from “this power exists; therefore X god claim is the true one” – at the most, you could only demonstrate that a power exists.

For example, let’s say that I could prove to you under controlled conditions that I have the power to transform into a cow. We could verify my claim that my power exists. But if I claimed that the power comes from Hindu gods, no amount of testing could verify that claim.

There’s a difference between a religion beeing true, and it being the true religion. One way we could test that is to study your personal life and see how much dominion you give the Hindu gods over your life.Either way, I would be compelled to believe you if you could transform into a cow. It wouldn’t be illogical, just depends on whether I suspect you of being a liar. Usually, the authenticity of one’s claims are measured by their performances. Which is why I don’t believe Joseph Smith is a prophet, because he claimed he could translate the “lost book of Abraham” which was actually about a whole other story.
It would make sense that you got your power to transform into a cow from a Hindu god, since they are a religion that glorifies cows for some reason. In the same way that it would make sense that Jesus got His power from God, since good works are used to glorify God. In the same way, people were saved after they experienced these phenomenas because they felt an emotion that is only recognizable as the Holy Spirit.