How can one claim that the following things are not sinful

[chevalier]

1. Masturbation in any circumstances. I am not talking about the possibility of it being venial or not sinful for a specific person on the account of addiction, lack of willingness or consciousness. I am asking how a Catholic can claim that masturbation as an act is right and proper in any circumstances.

I can’t imagine masturbation being right, no matter what.

1. Non-exclusive romantic relationships. I am not talking about going to the cinema or a dance with many different friends on a friendly basis. I am asking how a Catholic can morally justify building up more than one romantic relationship at a time.

I can’t imagine it ever being right to have anything romantic going on with more than one person. A mere sending of a pink Valentine card with a heart on it to two different persons does not look morally neutral to me. Kissing more than one person the special way (kissing on the lips if you kiss friends on the lips, French kissing if you happen to kiss friends on the lips) doesn’t look morally neutral to me. Flirting or talking sexy with more than one person doesn’t look morally neutral to me. Hanging on someone’s arm (or having someone hang on your arm) and talking sweet things doesn’t look morally neutral to me if the same is done with at least one other persons (we aren’t talking about brothers or brother-sister type relationships of unmarried people if both parties realise the brother-sister nature of the relationship - after all, we do talk sweet things to our siblings - but we can sense the difference). In fact, even calling it a date when someone is seeing many different people already looks else than morally neutral to me.

I’m not talking simply about doing certain things with more than one person, but I only mean it when it’s connected with mating. Sitting on a friend’s lap in a brother-sister type of a relationship or kissing a she-friend goodbye the way you would kiss your sister doesn’t count. I’m talking about romantic things and related to mating.

 

[Catholic2003]

chevalier:

I am asking how a Catholic can morally justify building up more than one romantic relationship at a time.

“Serial monogomy” is a secular standard of behavior, not a Catholic one. All the activities that are permitted outside of marriage are, by that standard alone, non-exclusive.

 

[JimG]

Well, “serial monogamy” in the current secular sexual ethos is probably thought by many to be entirely too strict an interpretation of sexual morality.

 

[chevalier]

“Serial monogomy” is a secular standard of behavior, not a Catholic one. All the activities that are permitted outside of marriage are, by that standard alone, non-exclusive.

So it’s perfectly all right to say “I love you” and hold hands gazing in the stars after a dinner with candles and dancing to romantic music with all the three (or twenty) girls a guy is dating at the same time? (Assuming that no sex follows and that the guy isn’t telling the girls he loves them like he loves his sister - before anyone comes up with such exceptions)

If that’s Catholic…

Sorry, you can’t convince me it’s morally neutral, let alone morally right for a guy to do that. I don’t see how such behaviour could be consistent with the Catholic religion.

I believe that anything romantic (romantic does not equal sexual) should be exclusive. Romeo would be an ugly fraud if he had another Juliet and Juliet would be like a courtesan if she had another Romeo. In my oh so humble opinion, it would contradict the one man and one woman plan of God, plus it would be regular fraud and plain cheating, as well as emotional promiscuity not so much different from having one night stands. Please address this.

I could be mean and come up with such examples as calling two girls your fiancee. Is this allowed before marriage? Yeah. So by your logic it should be by that standard alone non-exclusive. Et voila, by your reasoning, I can have anything from 2 to infinity of fiancees along with all the courting this entails. Infinity is a far stretch, but I’m one resourceful guy, so maybe six or seven? Should be able to handle.

 

[JCPhoenix]

I don’t see your real question here.

I don’t think anyone here actually thinks it’s ok for someone to have more than 1 fiancee. That is clearly cheating, clearly immoral and harmful to all involved.

But as far as seeing more than one person…well, if one is chaste and goes out on date on Tuesday with one person, say to dinner, and then goes on another dinner date on Friday, there is no committment to either person.

I’m currently single and talking to a couple different people…but have no idea if any romance will bloom from either. If I’m kissing one person, I certainly don’t want to go kiss another. I believe that if you’ve gone beyond hand-holding then it’s time to draw the line and make a decision. There should be no kissing before that decision is made.

Maybe that’s just my rule, and quite honestly, I"ve never dated more than one person at at time. It is too draining, I’ve seen what it does to others, but I have gone out on single dates with different people, none of whom led to further dates. It’s all a part of finding the right guy. Sometimes you have to spend some time individually with people to find out who they are and if you care to (or he cares) to take a step and spend MORE time.

Is this what you’re talking about?

 

[chevalier]

Starting from the end…

Is this what you’re talking about?

More or less, yes. Thank you.

If I’m kissing one person, I certainly don’t want to go kiss another.

Exactly. Neither do I. And I can’t agree that it would be right for a Catholic to do that.

I believe that if you’ve gone beyond hand-holding then it’s time to draw the line and make a decision.

&&

There should be no kissing before that decision is made.

I agree. Although I would actually say that even hand-holding is the moment when it’s time to draw the line unless the people are good friends or distant cousins or some such.

If a girl reached for my hand in the cinema in held throughout the entire movie and I saw her holding hands with another guy after that, there would be no second meeting unless the girl were a good friend to him or to me, which could explain the gesture. Perhaps an extremely extraordinary circumstance could convince me, like a huge internal conflict or the guy initiating the contact and the girl having a good reason or excuse for not escaping it.

But if she were my girlfriend and the guy were a stranger to her, I would definitely consider breaking up with her and most likely do that.

Well, so it seems that we do have things which are not wrong before marriage but should actually be exclusive. If non-exclusive dating includes those things, it’s promiscuous and sinful. In my oh so humble opinion, the use of the word “date” is very close to being one such thing. Hanging out is OK, but if my girlfriend or even a steady date told me she had a date, it would be the end of it. If it doesn’t include any romantic gesture or words or sexual symbolics, it isn’t a date unless explicitly stated otherwise (sorry for the law jargon) and there is no question of exclusivity.