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InSearchOfGod
Guest
What is substance? What is it made of? God is not made of atoms, there must be more to it . . .
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Brendan
Guest
Exactly.
‘Accidents’ are things that describe something, it’s shape, it’s color, anything can be detected via the senses (which does include atoms)
‘Substance’ is what something truely IS.
If you changed your hair style, or even painted your entire body red, you have changed your accidents, but you are still you. Your substance did not change.
If a Star Trek style transporter changed every single atom in your body, you would still be you, you would not be a completely different person.
That is becasue there is more to ‘you’ than a collection of atoms, or a hair style or a particular color of skin. Something deeper than the physical, something the physical only describes.
THAT is Substance.
In the Eucharist, God is present, but the description of Him being Present co-incides with that of bread and wine.
Everthing we can physically describe about bread describes his Presence.
But a description is not a Reality!
Just as describing something does not make it Real, Reality is not made or defined by it’s description. The Reality is that God is in front of us.
I hope this makes some sense, it’s really just a very poor paraphrase of St. Thomas Aquinas. He saying things so much better than I could ever hope for.
J
JimG
Guest
Substance is the reality of what something is.
But we can not come in contact with substance directly. Everything we know comes through the senses. Even our scientific instruments are extensions of the senses.
In God’s universe the sense appearances do match up with what an underlying substance is. Otherwise we could not know reality.
The sole exception is transubstantiation. In this instance, God allows the substance of the bread to be transformed into the substance of the body of christ, while the appearances of bread remain.
Note that the appearances of bread do not inhere in Christ’s body. Christ does not take on the appearance of bread. Rather, He is hidden beneath those appearances, whole and entire.
This is why, if you break the consecrated host, you do not break Christ’s body. It remains whole and entire under the smallest appearances of the bread.
But we can not come in contact with substance directly. Everything we know comes through the senses. Even our scientific instruments are extensions of the senses.
In God’s universe the sense appearances do match up with what an underlying substance is. Otherwise we could not know reality.
The sole exception is transubstantiation. In this instance, God allows the substance of the bread to be transformed into the substance of the body of christ, while the appearances of bread remain.
Note that the appearances of bread do not inhere in Christ’s body. Christ does not take on the appearance of bread. Rather, He is hidden beneath those appearances, whole and entire.
This is why, if you break the consecrated host, you do not break Christ’s body. It remains whole and entire under the smallest appearances of the bread.
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InSearchOfGod
Guest
Thanks for all your replies!
Perhaps this all comes down to the nature of God’s existence, which I know I’ll never understand unless I’m in Heaven. But while on earth I must search for Him!
St. Thomas Aquinas is amazing, isn’t he? I’ll have to start a new thread about him so I can get some book recommendations. I need to read his work (well, translations of his work).
Perhaps this all comes down to the nature of God’s existence, which I know I’ll never understand unless I’m in Heaven. But while on earth I must search for Him!
St. Thomas Aquinas is amazing, isn’t he? I’ll have to start a new thread about him so I can get some book recommendations. I need to read his work (well, translations of his work).
C
c659smith
Guest
Eucharistic Miracle
Lanciano, Italy 8th Century A.D.
Ancient Anxanum, the city of the Frentanese, has contained for over twelve centuries the first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church. This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk’s doubt about Jesus’ Real Presence in the Eucharist.
During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size.
The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church; it is light brown and appears rose-colored when lighted from the back.
The Blood is coagulated and has an earthy color resembling the yellow of ochre.
Various ecclesiastical investigation (“Recognitions”) were conducted since 1574.
In 1970-'71 and taken up again partly in 1981 there took place a scientific investigation by the most illustrious scientist Prof. Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena.
The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
These analyses sustained the following conclusions:
The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.
The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.
The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.
In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.
The Flesh is a “HEART” complete in its essential structure.
The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).
In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.
In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.
The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.
Fig. 1 - Eosine x 200. Overall histological aspect of a Flesh sample with fibers collected in bundles with longitudinal orientation as it occurs in the outer surface layers of the heart.
Fig. 2 - Miracle Heart in Lanciano. Mallory x 250. An artery and, very close, a branch of the vagal nerve.
Fig. 3 - Miracle Heart in Lanciano. Mallory x 400. Evidence of the “Rough” aspect of the endocardium; the syncytoid structure of the myocardial tissue
Fig. 4 - Elution-absorption test x 80. Above: Hemagglutination test on blood sample in Lanciano: on the left, anti A serum used; on the right, anti-B serum. Below: hemoagglutination test on a Flesh sample in Lanciano: left, with anti-A serum, right,with anti-B serum. It appears thus that the Flesh and the Blood in Lanciano belong to AB blood group.
Fig. 5 - Electro-phoretic pattern of Blood proteins (Cromoscan photometer). The profile of serum fractions is normal and superimposable to that of a fresh serum sample.
In conclusion, it may be said that Science, when called upon to testify, has given a certain and thorough response as regards the authenticity of the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano.
I hope this may answer some questions
Lanciano, Italy 8th Century A.D.
Ancient Anxanum, the city of the Frentanese, has contained for over twelve centuries the first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church. This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk’s doubt about Jesus’ Real Presence in the Eucharist.
During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size.
The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church; it is light brown and appears rose-colored when lighted from the back.
The Blood is coagulated and has an earthy color resembling the yellow of ochre.
Various ecclesiastical investigation (“Recognitions”) were conducted since 1574.
In 1970-'71 and taken up again partly in 1981 there took place a scientific investigation by the most illustrious scientist Prof. Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena.
The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
These analyses sustained the following conclusions:
The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.
The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.
The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.
In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.
The Flesh is a “HEART” complete in its essential structure.
The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).
In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.
In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.
The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.
Fig. 1 - Eosine x 200. Overall histological aspect of a Flesh sample with fibers collected in bundles with longitudinal orientation as it occurs in the outer surface layers of the heart.
Fig. 2 - Miracle Heart in Lanciano. Mallory x 250. An artery and, very close, a branch of the vagal nerve.
Fig. 3 - Miracle Heart in Lanciano. Mallory x 400. Evidence of the “Rough” aspect of the endocardium; the syncytoid structure of the myocardial tissue
Fig. 4 - Elution-absorption test x 80. Above: Hemagglutination test on blood sample in Lanciano: on the left, anti A serum used; on the right, anti-B serum. Below: hemoagglutination test on a Flesh sample in Lanciano: left, with anti-A serum, right,with anti-B serum. It appears thus that the Flesh and the Blood in Lanciano belong to AB blood group.
Fig. 5 - Electro-phoretic pattern of Blood proteins (Cromoscan photometer). The profile of serum fractions is normal and superimposable to that of a fresh serum sample.
In conclusion, it may be said that Science, when called upon to testify, has given a certain and thorough response as regards the authenticity of the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano.
I hope this may answer some questions
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