How can the holy bible (a collection of books as opposed to church leaders) - be the ultimate and final authority for non-Catholics...

[tester]

That’s what I did. By the way, I have registered with CARM and will ask some questions there when I get the chance.

whoa…I NEVER EVER recommended that!!

I don’t even go to the CARM forums:
but I have reviewed their posted Q & A

 

[joe370]

whoa…I NEVER EVER recommended that!!

I don’t even go to the CARM forums:
but I have reviewed their posted Q & A

My bad…

 

[Todd520]

joe, going to CARM will really help you develop your proselytizing skills
You get off easy here with your logical(?) proselytizing posts

That’s what I did. By the way, I have registered with CARM and will ask some questions there when I get the chance.

 

[joe370]

Tester simply asked me to consider asking certain questions at a protestant forum. I am not proselytizing; I am the one asking the questions.

joe, going to CARM will really help you develop your proselytizing skills
You get off easy here with your logical(?) proselytizing posts

 

[Nicea325]

Those references in fact show that the Bible must be the final authority. Not me, not you, nor the church, either yours or mine. The Bible doesn’t contradict itself, so any difficulty with one aspect of scripture can be clarified by searching other texts which dwell upon the same topic and subject. The Bible therefore interprets itself, the Holy Spirit guiding and leading and providing wisdom to understand as we progress and grow. If we deny the power of God to reveal His will to individuals by His Spirit we deny the promises that Peter tell us that we can trust in .(2 Peter 1:3,4.)

Where does Jesus or the Apostles teach the scriptures MUST be the final authority? Where does the Bible teach explicitly it is the FINAL authority?

 

[Nicea325]

Re: 2 Peter 1:20
Rightlydivided is absolutely correct:

While 2 Peter 1:20 is often used by Catholics as a “proof” text against Sola Scriptura it is actually a proof text for the divine inspiration of Scripture.

Verse 19 is talking about why we should pay attention to the word of the prophets. The reason why is that word of the prophets is not the prophets own self interpretation or originating from the will of a man, but from God himself through His Holy Spirit:

The context of these verses have nothing to do with someone’s reading and understanding of scripture, but has everything to with the true authorship of Scripture.

All well informed Protestants see it that way.

If Catholics claim that it means that you and I can’t personally interpret scripture, then please, really unpack it for us , show us Protestants how it doesn’t refer to the authorship of scripture.

If you cannot show that the context is the “reading and understanding” vs. the proclaiming of Divine Authorship of Scripture , then please refrain from quoting it as a “proof” text against Sola Scriptura

Not exactly! The RCC does not say one cannot or may never interpret scripture. That is not the point or what the RCC states. What the RCC is saying that as Catholics we can interpret any passage,but at the end of the day,the church has the final say as to what it is the correct interpretation. You and I and anyone may read the U.S. Constitution and give our interpretations,but in the end, the U.S. Supreme Court/Judicial Branch determines what it means…whether we like it or not.

 

[Todd520]

Well, all I can say is that when I read your posts,
I think you are proselytizing rather than asking sincere questions.

Tester simply asked me to consider asking certain questions at a protestant forum. I am not proselytizing; I am the one asking the questions.

 

[joe370]

=Todd520;7201357]Well, all I can say is that when I read your posts,
I think you are proselytizing rather than asking sincere questions.

Todd, if you think that I am trying to convert you, or any other non-Catholic to the catholic faith, then you are just flat out wrong. If a person searches with their heart soul and mind, as I did, and feels that the church to which they belong (be it the EOC, the CC or one of the PC’s) - is the house of the living God and the pillar and foundation of truth established by Jesus, then I believe they should stay right where they are.

Todd, why do you come here to CAF? Did you come here to learn more about the catholic faith, as I did, or to defend your personal position regarding Christianity?

 

[joe370]

Todd if you think that I am proselytizing, just ignore my threads and posts!

joe, going to CARM will really help you develop your proselytizing skills
You get off easy here with your logical(?) proselytizing posts

 

[tester]

Not exactly! The RCC does not say one cannot or may never interpret scripture. That is not the point or what the RCC states. What the RCC is saying that as Catholics we can interpret any passage,but at the end of the day,the church has the final say as to what it is the correct interpretation. You and I and anyone may read the U.S. Constitution and give our interpretations,but in the end, the U.S. Supreme Court/Judicial Branch determines what it means…whether we like it or not.

The point I made is that 1 Peter 1:20 is not about the reader’s interpretations: it is about the writers submitting to God’s will (not their own) when penning scripture.

1 Peter 1:20 has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura so stop using as such.

 

[simspt]

Not exactly! The RCC does not say one cannot or may never interpret scripture. That is not the point or what the RCC states. What the RCC is saying that as Catholics we can interpret any passage,but at the end of the day,the church has the final say as to what it is the correct interpretation. You and I and anyone may read the U.S. Constitution and give our interpretations,but in the end, the U.S. Supreme Court/Judicial Branch determines what it means…whether we like it or not.

And Catholics have faith that the Spirit is behind those final decisions concerning Doctrines.

 

[Todd520]

Nah, I think I’ll choose to comment as the spirit moves me

Todd if you think that I am proselytizing, just ignore my threads and posts!

 

[joe370]

Nah, I think I’ll choose to comment as the spirit moves me

Cool…

 

[brakelite]

The Bible can be the ultimate authority because it is the Word of God. We all agree, Protestant and Catholic, that it is the infallible Word of God. I believe it to be my ultimate authority because it holds forth a clear , permanent, unchanging, reliable, standard for what to believe and how to live. It clearly sets forth truth and identifies error. And its message, that the central figure from Genesis to Revelation, our Creator Jesus Christ, is a loving merciful gracious Saviour Who desires more than anything else that we know Him, that we love Him, that we become acquainted with Him personally, is a message I cherish and love and will allow no finite mortal human of flesh and blood and susceptible to the same temptations as the rest of mankind, to intrude on that relationship by claiming the authority to interpret God’s conversation with me. I have but one Mediator, Jesus. He will use any means possible to inform me of His will. Providence, other Christians,pastors and teachers have their roles and can and are used by God to speak to His children, but it His own written word that is the foundation and basis for all doctrine, faith and practice, and anything disagreeing with that infallible holy word must be repudiated .

"To the law and the testimony. If they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them" Isaiah 8:20

The scriptures are our safeguard against false teachers and the delusive powers of the spirits of darkness. Satan employs every possible means to prevent men from coming to a knowledge of the Bible; for its plain utterances reveal his deceptions.

**2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables
**
We are now living in the last days of earth’s history. Jesus is coming back in this generation, and the above text is now being fulflled. The time Paul spoke of is now fully come. Multitudes do not want Bible truth, because it interferes with the desires of the sinful world-loving heart, and Satan supplies the deceptions they love.

Psalm 119:33 ¶ HE. Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.
34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 ¶ Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.
36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.
37 ¶ Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
38 ¶ Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.
39 ¶ Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.
40 ¶ Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness

***Jeremiah 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

---

 

[joe370]

BrakeLite, you said:

The Bible can be the ultimate authority because it is the Word of God. We all agree, Protestant and Catholic, that it is the infallible Word of God. I believe it to be my ultimate authority because it holds forth a clear , permanent, unchanging, reliable, standard for what to believe and how to live. It clearly sets forth truth and identifies error.

The bible can set forth truth, but the bible cannot, on it’s own, identify errors. It’s a lot of paper with words on it. People are needed to discern those truths and identify and discern those errors. Agreed???

 

[pablope]

The Bible can be the ultimate authority because it is the Word of God. We all agree, Protestant and Catholic, that it is the infallible Word of God. I believe it to be my ultimate authority because it holds forth a clear , permanent, unchanging, reliable, standard for what to believe and how to live. It clearly sets forth truth and identifies error. And its message, that the central figure from Genesis to Revelation, our Creator Jesus Christ, is a loving merciful gracious Saviour Who desires more than anything else that we know Him, that “To the law and the testimony. If they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them” Isaiah 8:20

The scriptures are our safeguard against false teachers and the delusive powers of the spirits of darkness. Satan employs every possible means to prevent men from coming to a knowledge of the Bible; for its plain utterances reveal his deceptions.

**2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables
**
We are now living in the last days of earth’s history. Jesus is coming back in this generation, and the above text is now being fulflled. The time Paul spoke of is now fully come. Multitudes do not want Bible truth, because it interferes with the desires of the sinful world-loving heart, and Satan supplies the deceptions they love.

Brakelite, I would like your take on this. You seem to recognize some authority to interpret the Bible and you said it does not contradict itself.

This happened on another tread, regarding Sola Scriptura…or Faith and Works.

There was question on 2Tim 3:15 in that this verse states there is nothing else needed for salvation.

Anyway, one of the verses to reply is this:

Eph 2: 10: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

To contradict this verse, protestant reply was:

Eph 2: 8-9: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So, who will interpret these verses correctly? Whose authority?

 

[joe370]

Exactly pablope!!! Scripture cannot interpret scripture, just as the constitution of the US cannot interpret the constitution of the US; People interpret books…

Brakelite, I would like your take on this. You seem to recognize some authority to interpret the Bible and you said it does not contradict itself.

This happened on another tread, regarding Sola Scriptura…or Faith and Works.

There was question on 2Tim 3:15 in that this verse states there is nothing else needed for salvation.

Anyway, one of the verses to reply is this:

Eph 2: 10: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

To contradict this verse, protestant reply was:

Eph 2: 8-9: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So, who will interpret these verses correctly? Whose authority?

 

[JonNC]

=Church Militant;7198421]This idea does not have its roots in the Word of God and so proves to be a new wind of doctrines of modern men.
Correct. that’s why it is not a doctrine, but a practice. a practice that does not, cannot by definition, exclude or eliminate the role of the Church in hermuenetics.

Nowhere does the Bible ever lay claim to this final and ultimate authority, nor does it ever state that we are to read and interpret it for ourselves, since the early church certainly did not.

Correct, as Martin chemnitz wrote:

This is also certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages… We also gratefully and reverently use the labors of the fathers who by their commentaries have profitably clarified many passages of the Scripture. And we confess that we are greatly confirmed by the testimonies of the ancient church in the true and sound understanding of the Scripture. Nor do we approve of it if someone invents for himself a meaning which conflicts with all antiquity, and for which there are clearly no testimonies of the church.

In fact, as many of you know, St. Paul told Timothy specifically what the pillar and ground of the truth was.

[14] These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly. [15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. (1st Timothy 3)

Exactly.

Jon