How can we be happy without God?

[Charlemagne_II]

ASimon

If that was actually what you feared, what exactly would suicide accomplish? Who, when faced with the knowledge that they would lose everything when they died, would think killing themself was a viable alternative?

Obviously, I can’t speak for the atheist. But the stats are they for all to see.

Certainly all atheists do not commit suicide, but if you felt your life was hopeless, with atheism you might have no one to turn to for hope, and therefore be all the more likely to throw in the towel.

 

[ASimon]

ASimon

If that was actually what you feared, what exactly would suicide accomplish? Who, when faced with the knowledge that they would lose everything when they died, would think killing themself was a viable alternative?

Obviously, I can’t speak for the atheist. But the stats are they for all to see.

Certainly all atheists do not commit suicide, but if you felt your life was hopeless, with atheism you might have no one to turn to for hope, and therefore be all the more likely to throw in the towel.

The “stats” are basically nonsense. Every time someone does something highly immoral and there’s a hint that they were a Christian, the fellow flock members insist that they couldn’t be a Christian, because a Christian could or would never do that objectionable thing. To be Christian means that such acts are beneath you; to later commit those acts means that you weren’t a Christian at the time.

For that matter, I’ve never quite understood how you find out the religious tendencies of a suicide victim. It must be a tough interview.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

ASimon

**The “stats” are basically nonsense. **

The stats are only nonsense if you are an atheist.

conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_suicide

Atheists tend also to be determinists or fatalists. Fatalism is a debilitating philosophy of life.

The belief in free will is what opens up human possibilities and the hope of a better life. Likewise, in hard times, turning to God for comfort relieves the spirit of a sense of despair and doom.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Blue Horizon

If intelligent men/women try to hide/deny this teleological truth of the natural world then they will perhaps suffer more angst than they would if they just accepted the natural order
of things, painful though it is. The comfort of those who honestly face such despair is their union with the True.

If what Russell says is true, there may be comfort in union with the True. But he has no way of knowing for a certainty that what he says is True is really True.

So how can one have “comfort” never knowing for sure one has the True, and all the more so when the True offers only despair?

Charlemagne
It would seem a particular person’s heart/will/emotions responds to what is presented to it by the intellect - regardless of “objective” reality (whatever that means for any person(s) other than God). If Russell is sincere in his ultimate perceived experience/understanding of the final meaning of his life/cosmos then who are we to say his conviction/certainty is any weaker than that of believers. Consequently a brave, sincere assent/facing of such a difficult “truth” (even though it may be misplaced) may well elicit significant comfort from the wells of one’s deeper spirit.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Why should this be strange? …The desire and the search for the true can hardly lead inevitably towards the undemonstrable.

Sair
As a Catholic on a Catholic Forum it shouldn’t come as a surprise to you that this is pretty much exactly what I am convinced of - and is how I understand life/God works.

The only thing I would disagree with is its “inevitability.” A positive response is not inevitable. However the offer of faith by “God” (I am not hung up on that concept) to all is, I believe, inevitable - especially to those who sincerely and bravely seek “natural” truth even when difficult. This offer of the Undemonstrable does not have to be accepted - and that rejection may not necessarily take the form of a conscious/explicit decision.

Of course this offer may not be recognised as such until, perhaps, near the end of one’s life or at the moment of death when the “froth” of life is wiped aside and for an instant we see beneath the surface of the pool. Only then does a free choice finally becomes possible for those such as these.

I do not dispute your other comments, though I would note from personal experience that even for a believer it is much harder to experience what you (and others) call happiness at the dusk of one’s life. That is why I have much sympathy for Russells position.

If you are are one with Russell and are secure in your position why bother trolling a Catholic Forum … is there something in this “strangeness” that resonates despite understandable objections?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Blue Horizon

I do not dispute your other comments, though I would note from personal experience that even for a believer it is much harder to experience what you (and others) call happiness at the dusk of one’s life. That is why I have much sympathy for Russells position.

I am older than Russell was when he wrote the remarks in post #1. So I don’t have much sympathy for Russell’s position, whether that of a younger or older man. He denies hope, affirms despair, and that is all I need to know about his brand of atheism, which is pretty much the generic brand.

God made us to know HIm, love Him, and serve Him. Any denial of same is a denial of the truth. I have little sympathy for those who deny the truth, even when they cleverly convince themselves they are sincere and that their sincerity, if they are wrong, will save them.

So I don’t agree. And I think it’s entirely possible that by the time Russell reached his last years (in his 90s) he may well have softened his position on the conviction that there is no God. After all, he had spent much of his life affirming the relativism of truth. Why shouldn’t he change his mind yet again?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Blue Horizon

I do not dispute your other comments, though I would note from personal experience that even for a believer it is much harder to experience what you (and others) call happiness at the dusk of one’s life. That is why I have much sympathy for Russells position.

I am older than Russell was when he wrote the remarks in post #1. So I don’t have much sympathy for Russell’s position, whether that of a younger or older man. He denies hope, affirms despair, and that is all I need to know about his brand of atheism, which is pretty much the generic brand.

God made us to know HIm, love Him, and serve Him. Any denial of same is a denial of the truth. I have little sympathy for those who deny the truth, even when they cleverly convince themselves they are sincere and that their sincerity, if they are wrong, will save them.

So I don’t agree. And I think it’s entirely possible that by the time Russell reached his last years (in his 90s) he may well have softened his position on the conviction that there is no God. After all, he had spent much of his life affirming the relativism of truth. Why shouldn’t he change his mind yet again?

Charlemagne II
The possibility you enunciate cannot be denied (i.e. a subtle hubris and lack of sincereity) …as a possibility. I did not explicitate same but preferred to leave it for readers to read “between the lines” because I feel this is a judgement best left to God when we speak of particular persons.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Blue Horizon

**I did not explicitate same but preferred to leave it for readers to read “between the lines” because I feel this is a judgement best left to God when we speak of particular persons. **

None of us can judge … but we can all speculate.

Even Christopher Hitchens might be smiling down from above.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Most atheists that I know seem to hate God. Kinda funny because I didn’t know you could hate things that you don’t think are real. Most atheists that I know are very into sexual lusts, swearing, temptation, drugs, drinking ect.

Now I’m not saying they are all like this, just the ones that I know.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Pumpkin

**Most atheists that I know are very into sexual lusts, swearing, temptation, drugs, drinking ect. **

I know some Christians in those categories. But that’s all against their religion.

Whereas who atheists do these things are not acting against religion.

It would be interesting to know how much virtue is related to religion and how much vice is related to lack of religion.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Pumpkin

**Most atheists that I know are very into sexual lusts, swearing, temptation, drugs, drinking ect. **

I know some Christians in those categories. But that’s all against their religion.

Whereas who atheists do these things are not acting against religion.

It would be interesting to know how much virtue is related to religion and how much vice is related to lack of religion.

I knew somebody would mention that there are Christians who do this. I know there are, but being Christians, they should know better.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

**I have little sympathy for those who deny the truth, even when they cleverly convince themselves they are sincere and that their sincerity, if they are wrong, will save them. **

Charlemagne II
I believe there are two weaknesses in the thinking/emotion behind this sentiment that may be worth further reflection.

You don’t state it bluntly but emotionally I get the impression you believe that the wider vista of “truth” that you are convinced of (presumably by faith/revelation) is to be expected of anyone with in intelligence, some good will and long years. This may explain the emotional difficulty in accepting the sincerity of Russell’s (and other such atheists) position (personally or speculatively) wrt despair and so quickly equate it to a denial of the truth.

The second difficulty is that I believe it is perfectly consistent with Catholic theology that the nemesis of the intelligent “natural” man (i.e.fallen man without faith) is just what Russell says it is - despair, hopelessness. When in that condition this is a final natural “truth” that cannot easily be climbed over. Actually, this is one major reason we believe Christ came into the world… its the sick who need the doctor not the healthy. That is a sympathy I wish I had more of.

Hence** “Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built”** does seem consistent with Catholic Soteriology (even if hammed up a bit) if one regards this as the cry of pain of unaided human nature.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Blue

Hence “Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built” does seem consistent with Catholic Soteriology (even if hammed up a bit) if one regards this as the cry of pain of unaided human nature.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my
heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

Do you read into this, "Everyone (except those who sincerely believe I do not exist) who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.”

Then you are changing the text and clearly denying the words of Jesus.

 

[Ben_Quincy]

Stay focused on the philosophical question.

Please do not debate atheism itself.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Ben,

Stop shouting.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Blue

Hence “Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built” does seem consistent with Catholic Soteriology (even if hammed up a bit) if one regards this as the cry of pain of unaided human nature.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my
heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

Do you read into this, "Everyone (except those who sincerely believe I do not exist) who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.”

Then you are changing the text and clearly denying the words of Jesus.

Charlemagne
I think the reason you may not understand Russell’s logic (as per your original question), and how Catholics can make some sense out of it, is partly due to an incomplete understanding of basic Catholic theology/philosophy - but more because of some sort of underlying value issue/block that may be hidden from your own good self.

It has taken me, I admit a natural “intellectual”, many years to recognise when I am doing this. I now realise I am doing this when I get intellectually over assertive, use black and white reasoning and become, emotionally, more interested in winning an intellectual position of my own defining than actually reflecting much on what others say.

Its a typical Johari window, quadrant3 scenario. Inevitably self-reflection/prayer on my emotional responses and “letting go” is very helpful in gaining insight into what I am tempted to see as the “illogicality” or even the “evil” of others. It is largely my own “evil”.

Consequently there is nothing more I can say at an intellectual level (though I have the equivalent of a Masters in Theology) that can help you go farther on this one. If you feel my personal insights resonate then I am sure my suggestion will provide you far more insights/growth than the path you are attempting to pursue above. If there is no resonance then just ignore the ramblings of a fool. Take care.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Blue Horizon
**
It has taken me, I admit a natural “intellectual”, many years to recognise when I am doing this. I now realise I am doing this when I get intellectually over assertive, use black and white reasoning and become, emotionally, more interested in winning an intellectual position of my own defining than actually reflecting much on what others say. **

To reiterate, I don’t think anyone can be truly happy without God. A subjective notion of happiness might prevail, but it would be delusional. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!