How did God choose Mary?

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Nelka

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Do you think He saw all the women ever to be on Earth from the beginning of time until the end and saw that Mary would be the most pure of all women and so had her immaculately conceived?

Thanks.
 
No. 🙂 He had Mary in mind from eternity. God had always planned our redemption in Christ, his Son, hence he always had Mary in mind to be his Son’s mother.

We have to remember that God doesn’t live within time limits. To him all times are right now. He doesn’t wait to see what happens and then make decisions or look into the future before making his plans. His decisions/plans are set and do not change. It is we who change, so it can be hard for us to imagine a Person who doesn’t.
 
Yes.
He also had to choose a time and place that would be conducive for Jesus’ birth and ministry. Can you picture Mary choosing to give birth in this era, and all the pressure to abort that would be put on her?
The Jewish people were prepared to be the people to bring his message, and John the Baptist prepared the way for the savior. If he were acting today, he’d likely be ignored as another crackpot.
And we would have had two thousand years of sliding deeper into sin, without knowledge of redemption – we’d probably still have institutionalized slavery, child sacrifice, . . . wait, we pretty much do. But it might be much worse if Christ hadn’t come back then.

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I’m not sure Nelka’s answer is incompatible with God’s eternity and simplicity. Granted, the divine mind does not have a limited, discursive intellect like ours – he doesn’t have to ‘figure things out’ over time – but it is surely true that he saw all possibilities and chose the best.

Often, however, what is best in God’s eyes is not in ours. Surely purity would be important, but perhaps other traits also, which our Lady would pass on to our Lord, either genetically or through nurture. Virtue is essential, and can find expression in any personality; but perhaps some personalities were better than others for the task, both for our Lady and our Lord.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
I’m not sure Nelka’s answer is incompatible with God’s eternity and simplicity. Granted, the divine mind does not have a limited, discursive intellect like ours – he doesn’t have to ‘figure things out’ over time – but it is surely true that he saw all possibilities and chose the best.

Often, however, what is best in God’s eyes is not in ours. Surely purity would be important, but perhaps other traits also, which our Lady would pass on to our Lord, either genetically or through nurture. Virtue is essential, and can find expression in any personality; but perhaps some personalities were better than others for the task, both for our Lady and our Lord.
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Except that God didn’t “[see] all possibilities and chose the best.” 🙂 He created Mary especially for one purpose–to be the Mother of God. Could God have done it as you suggest? Sure–he’s God he can do what he likes. But, he simply didn’t do it that way. 😉
 
Della said:
Except that God didn’t “[see] all possibilities and chose the best.” 🙂 He created Mary especially for one purpose–to be the Mother of God. Could God have done it as you suggest? Sure–he’s God he can do what he likes. But, he simply didn’t do it that way. 😉
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Please provide support for your objection. “He simply didn’t” with a coy wink does not give any reasons to accept your opinion which you state as fact. If you offer good reasons, I may accept your opinion as better. Are you objecting to the idea that the divine will follows the divine intellect, or are you objecting to the idea of theoretical alternate histories, given that God’s will is fixed and the only reality, or what?

In connection with the latter, do you deny the following? When God created Adam and Eve, he knew whom all their descendants would be; also whom *could *be their descendants under an infinite number of alternate histories–and for that matter, how things could unfold under different First Parents he could have made.

Why is “God planned it” a better expression than “God saw and chose”? To me it implies the same thing.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
Please provide support for your objection. “He simply didn’t” with a coy wink does not give any reasons to accept your opinion which you state as fact.
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I did support my objection–in my first post.
If you offer good reasons, I may accept your opinion as better.
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I did support my reasons in my first post.
Are you objecting to the idea that the divine will follows the divine intellect, or are you objecting to the idea of theoretical alternate histories, given that God’s will is fixed and the only reality, or what?
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I’m not objecting to anything except the idea that God picked Mary out from all women who could be. It’d be like a grower choosing which is the better apple out of all the apples that he grows in his orchard.
In connection with the latter, do you deny the following? When God created Adam and Eve, he knew whom all their descendants would be; also whom *could *be their descendants under an infinite number of alternate histories–and for that matter, how things could unfold under different First Parents he could have made.
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Yes, I am objecting to that idea–for the reasons I stated in my first post.
Why is “God planned it” a better expression than “God saw and chose”? To me it implies the same thing.
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Because it’s not the same thing. Planning to create something isn’t the same thing as seeing and choosing something that will be.

I cite this quotation from EWTN:
In fact, in Mary God created a feminine personality which greatly surpasses the ordinary condition of woman as it appears in the creation of Eve. Mary’s unique excellence in the world of grace and her perfection are fruits of the particular divine benevolence which seeks to raise everyone, men and women, to the moral perfection and holiness which are proper to the adopted children of God. Mary is “blessed among women”; however, every woman shares in some way in her sublime dignity in the divine plan.
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So, although all human beings were meant to be as holy as Mary, not every woman was a candidate for that honor.

From the CCC:

488 “God sent forth his Son”, but to prepare a body for him, he wanted the free co-operation of a creature. For this, from all eternity God chose for the mother of his Son a daughter of Israel, a young Jewish woman of Nazareth in Galilee, “a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary”:

The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life.
 
Della said:
I did support my objection–in my first post.
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Yes, but you didn’t address the idea that God sees all possible realities (as opposed to future events). Your first post merely deals with time: He had Mary in mind from eternity. …] He doesn’t wait to see what happens and then make decisions or look into the future before making his plans.

Is it not possible that God, all at once, and from eternity, sees all possible realities and from those chooses the best? Not in a discursive manner as a man does, but simply and all at once. If you deny that God sees all possible realities (whether or not this “affects” his decision), then what becomes of his omniscience?
 
Ad_Orientem said:
Yes, but you didn’t address the idea that God sees all possible realities (as opposed to future events). Your first post merely deals with time: He had Mary in mind from eternity. …] He doesn’t wait to see what happens and then make decisions or look into the future before making his plans.

Is it not possible that God, all at once, and from eternity, sees all possible realities and from those chooses the best? Not in a discursive manner as a man does, but simply and all at once. If you deny that God sees all possible realities (whether or not this “affects” his decision), then what becomes of his omniscience?
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There is a huge difference between seeing all possibilities and choosing from all possibilities. God certainly can do the first, but he doesn’t/didn’t do the latter. His plans for Mary were from eternity, not because he could see all possibilities.
 
Della said:
His plans for Mary were from eternity, not because he could see all possibilities.
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Why not? Do you object because a will following an intellect seems to imply passage of time? But the Father begets the Son eternally; why could not the divine will follow the divine intellect eternally?

Do you object because the will of God has no cause? But if the divine will does not in some sense follow the divine intellect, then what becomes of God’s rationality, or of his willing all things according to his wisdom?
 
Ad_Orientem said:
Why not? Do you object because a will following an intellect seems to imply passage of time? But the Father begets the Son eternally; why could not the divine will follow the divine intellect eternally?

Do you object because the will of God has no cause? But if the divine will does not in some sense follow the divine intellect, then what becomes of God’s rationality, or of his willing all things according to his wisdom?
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My friend, you are overthinking this whole thing. 🤷
 
Della said:
As I understand it, they’re for reasoned discussion, not to endlessly debate pointless minutia. At least, I don’t have the time/desire to do that.
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Della, what you consider obvious may not be obvious to others; what you consider pointless may not be pointless to others. It is rather insulting, if not evasive, to tell someone their questions are pointless, who sincerely seeks clarification on your responses. It’s okay, we don’t have to take it further if you don’t want to.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
Della, what you consider obvious may not be obvious to others; what you consider pointless may not be pointless to others. It is rather insulting, if not evasive, to tell someone their questions are pointless, who sincerely seeks clarification on your responses. It’s okay, we don’t have to take it further if you don’t want to.
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No insult was intended. Sorry you took it that way, but it is pointless to go on and on, taking a thread off topic, just to satisfy ones desire to debate obscure points of theology.
 
Della said:
No insult was intended. Sorry you took it that way, but it is pointless to go on and on, taking a thread off topic, just to satisfy ones desire to debate obscure points of theology.
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My questions were on topic. All you had to say was, “I don’t know,” or “I’m not interested in going that deep.” Instead you attribute ill motives to my part of the discussion. That’s okay, I won’t hold it against you. Peace.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
My questions were on topic. All you had to say was, “I don’t know,” or “I’m not interested in going that deep.” Instead you attribute ill motives to my part of the discussion. That’s okay, I won’t hold it against you. Peace.
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But I did say I didn’t want to discuss what you brought up. And that’s the end of it for me, too.
 
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