How Did I Get Stuck in This Debate?

[bobbyhillisabro]

Well James chapter 2 is all about the relationship of faith and works. So if The Bible is true (and it is), then show him this.

James 2:14-26

My brothers, what good is it to profess faith without practicing it? Such faith has no power to save one, has it? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and no food for the day, and you say to them, “Good-bye and good luck! Keep warm and well fed,” but do no meet their bodily needs, what good is that? So it is with the faith that does nothing in practice. It is thoroughly lifeless.

To such a person one might say, “You have faith and I have works-is that is?” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you the faith that underlies my works! Do you believe that God is one? You are quite right. The demons believe that, and shudder. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that without works faith is idle? Was not our father Abraham justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? There you see proof that faith was both assisting his works and implemented by his works. You also see how the Scripture was fulfilled which say, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as justice”; for this he received the title “God’s friend”.

You must perceive that a person is justified by his works and not by faith alone. Rahab the harlot will illustrate the point. Was she not justified by here works when she harbored the messengers and sent them out by a different route? Be assured, then, that faith without works is dead as a body without breath.

Surely this isnt saying that we must practice The Law

 

[irisfromohio]

Well James chapter 2 is all about the relationship of faith and works. So if The Bible is true (and it is), then show him this.

Surely this isnt saying that we must practice The Law

HELLO! That is what I tried to tell him and that even Martin Luther, the father of his “theology” did not interpret it that way. He is truly clueless. And, now, he is history

 

[Julia_Mae]

I have gone back to college to finish my degree, (I WILL BE 60 WHEN I FINISH WHAT I STARTED IN 1971!!! WOOHOO!!!) :

Don’t you just love being back in school now? I did. The kids think they are having all the fun, they never know all the fun is sitting in the classroom, or the lab or the library.

You go girl!

 

[Goya]

Well, I took the adviceof the majority and I thank all who answered me. His response was just as predicted & he had to have the last word. Here is the last part of our dialogue. From when I was talking to him while riding in my car… Don’t worry, I was using the talk function on my phone, not texting & driving, but I was SO irritated, I wanted to get out of the conversation:
…
Iris Blessed Dunson
who taught you what you are telling me?

11:26am
Jamie
God

11:26am
Iris Blessed Dunson
through what human being or human voice were you talk by God?
Taught

11:28am
Jamie
The bible
I know you are looking for another answer that you can pounce on, thats my answer, God taught me.

11:30am
Iris Blessed Dunson
written by men. they received the inspired Word of God. so what we’re talking about is your human interpretation.

11:30am
Jamie
Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, solomon, Jesus, Paul, Peter, to name a few.

11:31am
Iris Blessed Dunson
not dodging seriously but I have to go. I will discuss
your interpretations when I get to my computer.

11:32am
Jamie
If I read on the page, “the tree is green” theres nothing to interpret. Catholics live in a world of relative truth, I get it.
Today

3:01pm
Iris Blessed Dunson
Well, I am afraid that you don’t, Jamie. Poor analogy, because a tree is not just “green”, especially in the winter. That is relative, as so many things in life are.
After much thought, I have decided that you are not discussing this subject in earnest. I try to substantiate my statements of faith and you not only reject them, you disregard or find a way to minimize them.
You said that when you read the word, “works” in Sacred Scripture, it means “Law”. You provided no reference or substantiation that this is correct. Until you do, you are simply voicing your opinions at best and inventing “facts” at worst. Until you can provide some corroboration or authoritative substantiation, I’m afraid I have nothing more to say, as I am not very interested in your personal opinions interpretations and what seem to be fantasies at times. IOW, put up or shut up.
Now, you’re a man, so I know you must have the last word. That’s fine. May God continue to bless you.

3:55pm
Jamie
The book of Romans.
Genesis.
Exodus
Leviticus
Phillippians
Thessolonians
Ephesians
Thats how I know its law
You either believe the bible is sufficient or you dont. I believe it is. I dont need other doctrines added to it to explain it. God explained it just fine,he doesnt need help from the catholic church.
You obviously dont trust God so you trust in something you can touch, feel, see and tells you what to believe.
Sent from Mobile
…
So, we were all correct. I will leave him in his delusion of victory and continue to pray for him. Thanks again.

Excellent work there, Iris!

This goes to show what I posted in another thread in the Scripture forum–about what a myth it is, that ‘protestants know the bible better than Catholics’. What complete bunk! This shows exactly what I was referring to. Sure there are some–perhaps even a lot–of protestants that know their scripture farily well (albeit sans proper context)–but the vast majority can only give you some blanket rebuttal or defense of thier position, along the lines of ‘because the Bible says so’. Nah…because their pastor (or some radio jock pastor/TV ‘evangelist’) told them, that that’s what the Bible says. (…but then there’s that pesky little issue of context…and even more damning… HISTORY!..I digress…)

…but judging from the exchange you posted, seems like he’s just babling in platitudes, while you seem to have grasped the issue(s). Nice work. Unfortunately, probably not necessarily fruitful in terms of evangelization, but then maybe you planted a seed…and maybe it will take root–with some (lot’s apparently) help from the Holy Spirit.

b/t/w: nice work in pointing out that he is relying on his/human interpretation of scripture, and not actually on God’s Word–and particularly nice touch with turning his ‘green tree’ analogy on its head! (especially given that you were driving, and shooting off the cuff…).

Not that I’m any kind of an expert…just one humble poster’s observations/opinion.

 

[eonporter]

I am in desperate need of assistance in teaching me to allow my cooler head to prevail. Oh, I am not involved in anything overtly hostile, but it is frustrating.

Somehow, on Facebook, I began defending the Catholic faith with a young man who insists on telling me about all of the false teachings of the Chruch. He will ask me a question and if I answer it, he tells me that I was taught wrong. For example, he claims that everytime you see the term “Good Works” in Scripture, it means “Law”. Then, he cannot back up where he learned this interpretation.

Arguments go round and round, everytime I answer, he will change the subject, make an end run around what I have said, TWIST what I have said and then come back, firing a repetative question at me claiming I didn’t answer it when I KNOW I DID, and just convolute the conversation to the point of … of … ludicrosy. I could share some of the dialogue if anyone wishes to assist me, but I realize that ultimately, maybe my best move is to extricate myself from the conversation all together and allow him the last word, upon which he insists on having…Grrrr!

Word of advice: facebook is evil, and there isn’t one chance in a million that your are going to convert someone by having a discussion there.

Just stay away from facebook, really. I can’t elaborate more right now, but I will in a near future, meanwhile just be warned.

 

[pablope]

Well, I took the adviceof the majority and I thank all who answered me. His response was just as predicted & he had to have the last word. Here is the last part of our dialogue. From when I was talking to him while riding in my car… Don’t worry, I was using the talk function on my phone, not texting & driving, but I was SO irritated, I wanted to get out of the conversation:
…
Iris Blessed Dunson
who taught you what you are telling me?

11:26am
Jamie
God

11:26am
Iris Blessed Dunson
through what human being or human voice were you talk by God?
Taught

11:28am
Jamie
The bible
I know you are looking for another answer that you can pounce on, thats my answer, God taught me.

11:30am
Iris Blessed Dunson
written by men. they received the inspired Word of God. so what we’re talking about is your human interpretation.

11:30am
Jamie
Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, solomon, Jesus, Paul, Peter, to name a few.

11:31am
Iris Blessed Dunson
not dodging seriously but I have to go. I will discuss
your interpretations when I get to my computer.

11:32am
Jamie
If I read on the page, “the tree is green” theres nothing to interpret. Catholics live in a world of relative truth, I get it.
Today

3:01pm
Iris Blessed Dunson
Well, I am afraid that you don’t, Jamie. Poor analogy, because a tree is not just “green”, especially in the winter. That is relative, as so many things in life are.
After much thought, I have decided that you are not discussing this subject in earnest. I try to substantiate my statements of faith and you not only reject them, you disregard or find a way to minimize them.
You said that when you read the word, “works” in Sacred Scripture, it means “Law”. You provided no reference or substantiation that this is correct. Until you do, you are simply voicing your opinions at best and inventing “facts” at worst. Until you can provide some corroboration or authoritative substantiation, I’m afraid I have nothing more to say, as I am not very interested in your personal opinions interpretations and what seem to be fantasies at times. IOW, put up or shut up.
Now, you’re a man, so I know you must have the last word. That’s fine. May God continue to bless you.

3:55pm
Jamie
The book of Romans.
Genesis.
Exodus
Leviticus
Phillippians
Thessolonians
Ephesians
Thats how I know its law
You either believe the bible is sufficient or you dont. I believe it is. I dont need other doctrines added to it to explain it. God explained it just fine,he doesnt need help from the catholic church.
You obviously dont trust God so you trust in something you can touch, feel, see and tells you what to believe.
Sent from Mobile
…
So, we were all correct. I will leave him in his delusion of victory and continue to pray for him. Thanks again.

I would have added one thing…on his last post:

Thats how I know its law
You either believe the bible is sufficient or you dont. I believe it is. I dont need other doctrines added to it to explain it. God explained it just fine,he doesnt need help from the catholic church.
You obviously dont trust God so you trust in something you can touch, feel, see and tells you what to believe.

Well and good…but you are lacking one more step…the step that Paul did…which he recounts in Gal 2:2…before he went on his first missionary journey:

Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Unless one has assurance that Paul sought and was revealed to him that he needed it…then it is private opinion and interpretation…one is not following a Biblical example.

 

[bobbyhillisabro]

HELLO! That is what I tried to tell him and that even Martin Luther, the father of his “theology” did not interpret it that way. He is truly clueless. And, now, he is history

that convinces me that he was just a troll