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sparkle
Guest
Please help with knowing what to say when Fundamentalists say “Catholics have all these graven images, completely contrary to the Ten Commandments”. How should we respond?
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Chris_W
Guest
Personally, I’d ask that person if he/she has any photos of spouse, kids, grandparents, etc. If so, ask why? The obvious answer is because it reminds us of them. It causes us to think of them. It is consoling when we are away from them. That’s the answer to the question. Same rules apply to saints, Jesus, etc (in fact, ask if they have a cross).
So the real question is, what practice exactly are we supposed to feel the need to defend? The idea that the use of images is inappropriate stems from a nonsensical belief that Catholics worship idols. I’d ask for proof…because there is none.
So the real question is, what practice exactly are we supposed to feel the need to defend? The idea that the use of images is inappropriate stems from a nonsensical belief that Catholics worship idols. I’d ask for proof…because there is none.
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CnDWelch
Guest
Do you have pictures of loved ones in your wallet? How about in your home, any framed pictures of family or friends? These call to mind our loved ones, just as pictures and statues of Jesus, Mary and the saints call our minds to remember them, God’s special friends, and to God in general.
Ask a fundy if pictures of his family are “graven”. Neither are pictures of Jesus.
Ask a fundy if pictures of his family are “graven”. Neither are pictures of Jesus.
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Joanna
Guest
Ask to see their driver’s licenses or their wallets.
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Scott_Waddell
Guest
CCC:
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Carl
Guest
Our Protestant friends always seem to know parts of the Bible well, but hardly ever seem to know the whole Bible. See Exodus, chapter 37: 6-10. The reference is to the Ark of the Covenant, and how it is to be decorated. It should be remembered that the Ten Commandments were to be placed inside the Ark.
*The propitiatory was made of pure gold, two and a half cubits long and one and a half cubits wide. Two cherubim of beaten gold were made for the two ends of the propitiatory, one cherub fastened at one end, the other at the other end, springing directly from the propitiatory at its two ends. The cherubim had their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them. They were turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory. *
The graven images of cherubim were commanded by God, Who permits graven images dedicated to Himself. The reference in the Ten Commandments is clearly to forbidding the making of graven images of false gods.
*The propitiatory was made of pure gold, two and a half cubits long and one and a half cubits wide. Two cherubim of beaten gold were made for the two ends of the propitiatory, one cherub fastened at one end, the other at the other end, springing directly from the propitiatory at its two ends. The cherubim had their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them. They were turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory. *
The graven images of cherubim were commanded by God, Who permits graven images dedicated to Himself. The reference in the Ten Commandments is clearly to forbidding the making of graven images of false gods.
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The_Barrister
Guest
Look at the entire commandment: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath…Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.”
It’s not the making of all graven images that is sinful - it’s the *worshipping * of such graven images that is sinful and forbidden. God even commanded Moses to make graven images (cherubim, serpent), but not for worship. God even blessed the Temple, and the Bible tells us the temple was covered with images (see Chronicles, 1 and 2).
Why would God have to tell them not to worship them if they were forbidden to create them in the first place? If you believe that God commanded that ALL graven images are sinful and forbidden, then there would be no need to have told them not to worship graven images.
It’s not the making of all graven images that is sinful - it’s the *worshipping * of such graven images that is sinful and forbidden. God even commanded Moses to make graven images (cherubim, serpent), but not for worship. God even blessed the Temple, and the Bible tells us the temple was covered with images (see Chronicles, 1 and 2).
Why would God have to tell them not to worship them if they were forbidden to create them in the first place? If you believe that God commanded that ALL graven images are sinful and forbidden, then there would be no need to have told them not to worship graven images.
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sparkle
Guest
The Barrister:
I see many folks after Mass passing by the Statue of Mary, which was “made” by man, and bowing down to it…for it is a likeness of something in heaven don’t you think?..so are the statues of all our Saints we find in our parishes. These were “made” as a likeness of someone in heaven…
How do we explain this to our Protestant brothers and sisters when they are shoving this in our faces? I know we are not worshipping them, but–all the same—we have made them, they are likenesses of some on earth, some in heaven, and we are bowing down to them all the same. This is what the commandment says not to do.
Yes. But look at the first sentence of your post. It does not say thou shalt not worship any graven image–it says thou shall not “make” unto thee, any likeness of anything that is on earth or in heaven, bow down to them, etc.
I see many folks after Mass passing by the Statue of Mary, which was “made” by man, and bowing down to it…for it is a likeness of something in heaven don’t you think?..so are the statues of all our Saints we find in our parishes. These were “made” as a likeness of someone in heaven…
How do we explain this to our Protestant brothers and sisters when they are shoving this in our faces? I know we are not worshipping them, but–all the same—we have made them, they are likenesses of some on earth, some in heaven, and we are bowing down to them all the same. This is what the commandment says not to do.
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Todd_Easton
Guest
I like to mention the two 15-foot-tall, gold-covered statues of angels (cherubim) in the inner sanctuary of Solomon’s Temple mentioned in 1 Kings 6:23-28.
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Annunciata
Guest
How about when we bow down to the Infant Jesus in the crib at Christmas…This an image of God…so if we are bowing down to God…what are we doing wrong? I know many Protestants who reverence the Baby Jesus in this manner.
And what about the pole with the serpents on it that Moses had erected in the desert? (I forget where it is in the Scriptures)
And what about the pole with the serpents on it that Moses had erected in the desert? (I forget where it is in the Scriptures)
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
To restate what others have already said. It’s all about taking the commands of the Bible in context. Protestants can never do that, because if they did they would all become Catholics. 
Catholics are not directed to worship statues or idols. Veneration of relics and statues does not equal worship. Worship (Latria) is given to God alone. Honor and respect (dulia) is paid to saints and we use statues and icons to remind us of their good examples. The highest form of honor is paid to Mary the Mother of God (sometimes referred to as hyperdulia)
Some individual Catholics may take veneration (dulia) to levels that others might view as unseemly, but true Catholics recognize the distinction between honoring our departed brothers and sisters in the faith, and worshiping them.
-Peace.
Catholics are not directed to worship statues or idols. Veneration of relics and statues does not equal worship. Worship (Latria) is given to God alone. Honor and respect (dulia) is paid to saints and we use statues and icons to remind us of their good examples. The highest form of honor is paid to Mary the Mother of God (sometimes referred to as hyperdulia)
Some individual Catholics may take veneration (dulia) to levels that others might view as unseemly, but true Catholics recognize the distinction between honoring our departed brothers and sisters in the faith, and worshiping them.
-Peace.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
But you do realize that the baby Jesus is God incarnate. None of the saints are God incarnate, so there’s a big difference.
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Vincent
Guest
What’s forbidden is the making of images to be treated as a diety. No good Catholic believes that a piece of stone or metal is a god.
Moreover, not all bowing is considered worship. Folks in Japan bow to each other, but do you think they’re engaged in divine worship? Of course not. Jacob bowed before Esau seven times in Genesis 33:3, and no one would consider that an act of divine worship.
And, as it was pointed out earlier, God had the Israelites make images of cherubim (likenesses of those in heaven) and an image of a serpent (likeness of something on earth). As far as the latter, the Israelites got into trouble only when they started treating it as an idol.
And God isn’t a flip-flopper: “Thou shalt not create images…what a minute, make one…hey, don’t do that!”
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Annunciata
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sorry, my point here is that it is still indeed an image…
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
So did God’s Holy Temple in Jerusalem. Obviously, “graven images” are not evil. Worshipping graven images instead of the one true God is evil.
The Protestant chapel on the USAF Academy where I live has a cross hanging from the ceiling. It is a graven image. The Jewish Synogogue on the Academy has graven images on its walls. Lincoln memorial has a graven image in it. The coins they carry around in their pocket have graven images. eeek! I don’t think they realize what a graven image is. If they have ever had anything engraved, it is a graven image.
Now, if they don’t mean graven images in that sense, but use it in the sense that Scripture prohibits, then that’s something altogether different. That is, perhaps they mean “graven image” in the sense that Webster defines it: “an object of worship carved usually from wood or stone : IDOL” If this is the sense they are using the word, then no … Catholics prohibit these.
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Vincent
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“I will bow down toward your holy temple…” (Psalm 138:2). What was in the Temple?“In the inner sanctuary… two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high”
(1 Kings 6:23).
(1 Kings 6:23).
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Eeeeek! Bowing down toward a Temple adorn with graven images?!? Obviously they worshipped the images of golden cherubim instead of God!!! 
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rarndt01
Guest
The problem doesn’t lie in Catholics praying or worshiping graven images. That we don’t. The problem lies in BOWING DOWN to them. It is just as wrong to bow down before a graven image, as it is to make one and worship it. We Catholics can’t get around that objection.
Ron from Ohio
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itsjustdave1988
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I don’t think you read the Scripture posted above. Jews bowed down before graven images in prayer. The high priest knelt before the altar, facing the image-adorn temple with hands raised in prayer. Jews from outside of Jerusalem would turn to face the Jerusalem Temple in prayer, sometimes standing, sometimes kneeling. The Psalmist said: "“I will bow down toward your holy temple…” (Psalm 138:2). Was the psalmist wrong to BOW DOWN toward the graven image adorn Temple?
Jews continued this practice. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, “The custom of turning toward the east while at prayer, observed by the Jews living west of Palestine, is of great antiquity (Dan. vi. 11; comp. I Kings viii. 38; Ber. 28b.)” According to the same article, during prayer “One who is outside of Palestine should turn toward Palestine; in Palestine, toward Jerusalem; in Jerusalem, toward the Temple; and in the Temple, toward the Holy of Holies” (Ber. 30a; Yer. Ber. iv. 5)." (Jewish Encyclopedia, “mizra”) In another article from the same source, it states “**It was customary in prayer to turn toward the Temple at Jerusalem (I Kings viii. 38; II Chron. vi. 34; Dan. vi. 11); this attitude may even have been considered necessary to give validity to the prayer. The Israelites prayed both standing and kneeling. **” (ibid, “Liturgy”).
Why would they do this? Why pray kneeling toward a graven-image adorn Ark inside the Holy of Holies? A superficial understanding of their actions may suggest they worshipped a golden box adorn with golden cherubim, no?
Furthermore, Abraham, among other holy men in the Bible, bowed down before men. Was bowing down before things (Temple) or people prohibited by Scripture? No. Only if the *intent *was to worship that something.
How do the objectors “get around” the passages in Scripture where devout Jews bow or kneel before image-adorn objects in prayer? Not only making graven images, but also bowing in prayer before those images is exactly what the Psalmist himself testifies to.
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Vincent
Guest
The Esau before whom Jacob bowed down seven— count 'em 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7-- times is made in God’s image.
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