How do I deal with this Protestant?

[acarlson]

I made this same sort of mistake a number of times.

Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis have said to the Church that she does not grow by proselytization, but by attraction to a heroic mode of life. One in service to the poor, sacrifice in the penance of the cross, a fully frequented sacramental life, with intense prayer and study onto due discretion.

It is great to be on fire for the Lord, and its obvious you want your friend to have what you have. I would recommend caution in discussing the faith. If you go in with The mentality, I’m right you’re wrong, it could be detrimental to your friendship and push him further away from our most holy faith. He is probably just regurgitating what his preacher is telling him. If you do discuss our faith, try to focus on one issue at a time. Be calm, answer his questions lovingly and patiently, and ask questions of your own. ** Above all, pray. Only the holy spirit can bring him home. ** In the meantime, continue to love him and be the best Catholic you can be.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

To sum up: debate is not necessarily the way to show the truth of the Catholic church to people. It can do some good (especially if someone’s reasons for belief are very logical), but it will NOT convert someone. That’s the Holy Spirit’s job. You’d do better to show through your own life how Christ and his love affects you.

 

[PaulDupre1]

I believe Paul says it best in 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 "I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas**”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."

Another good point is that the Protestant Church branched off of the Catholic Church (Protestant Reformation, 1517) Since Christ’s death in 33 AD the Catholic Church has been the only until 1091 with the split of Eastern and Western Catholics. So yes, we are Christians, we are the original Christians. We have as Christians (Catholics and Protestants alike) strayed from the 4 marks of the Church stated in the Nicene Creed “I believe in ONE** holy CATHOLIC and Apostolic church.” We are (as Catholics) not a denomination but the original Christians with a direct line to the 12 apostles of Christ. The Papacy is the line of St. Peter.

A really solid post. Well done and thank you!

Paul

 

[TK421]

When discussing, just dissect one issue at a time. Unless he’s the one coming to you and is already convinced or nearly convinced, it is unlikely that a wall of instruction will do much good.

Try to think through his shoes. It is unlikely for a modern protestant to consciously perceive themselves as a protestant. More than likely, he sees himself as being just an original, default Christian, and the Catholic Church as some kind of strange extra-Biblical entity. Try to make him see the problems that arise from his view: the divisions with protestantism, the lack of reliable authority when settling matters, the changing moral theology within protestantism. Then maybe, perhaps, he will start to wonder if he is missing something. It will be sewing doubt within him of a sort, but it will be a good doubt.

And, ultimately, be an impeccable example by instilling the fruits of the Spirit in your life, so that, at the very least, his heart might be warmed towards Catholics. Show him that you do indeed have an intense intimate relationship with Christ.

 

[maxm2820]

Here is my advice from a Baptists point of view; stop trying to convert him. Don’t even go there. Don’t ask him to attend mass or bible study with you. He is NOT ready for this. We are taught that Christ died on the cross to “fulfill” the gap that priest were once required to fill so that we could have a “direct” line to God without the need of others. So anything you say beyond that is really mute. If you want him to start thinking about the foundation of his entire faith and understanding of God, you have to start by being very knowledgeable of the protestant bible (not saying that your not!!!). You have to be able to pull solely from that. For me, it was Matthew 16:19(??) that broke my foundation. I started to realize that my understanding was missing something vital. Men (priests) do actually have the power to forgive sins. Which is completely opposite of what I was taught. It was undeniable (and by that I mean, CHRIST made it undeniable to me…not logic, but GOD). It took me over a year (and I am still not FULLY there) to accept this. I had to contemplate, pray and ask advice from both sides! It is a long, INTERNAL, pride-shattering process. Your only job is to be there to answer questions. Don’t forget that you can only do one of two things for him; push him away or answer his questions. Beyond that, even living the example, is up to him and his perceptions and how God is working in him…hope that helps and good luck!

 

[Nicea325]

I know this boy, and he calls himself a “Baptist-Evangelical”, and I try to convince him why he should convert to the Catholic Church, but he only says “Our prayers don’t need to go through priests, not the Pope, only to Jesus.” He is also a Bible-literalist, and he is incredibly stubborn. He says purgatory doesn’t exist, and even when presented with Biblical evidence supporting the Papacy, he ignores it. He also says “Catholics aren’t Christians…Christian’s don’t have mass.” He defines a Christian as “Someone who has a personal relationship with Jesus.” When I ask him what that means he, is vague and doesn’t really describe it. He n’y says “Someone who knows they are going to heaven”. He is exhausting! How do I convert him and explain the doctrine of the true Church?

A Bible-literalist and I can bet all my marbles,he denies John 6 as literal? Right?

BTW: Ask him this:

Please present one Catholic document stating that faithful Catholics prayers need to go through the priests and pope?

 

[cheese_sdc]

I know this boy, and he calls himself a “Baptist-Evangelical”, and I try to convince him why he should convert to the Catholic Church,

Why do you need to convert him? Just let him live his live and you can live yours.

 

[kimg901]

Give him a Catechism of the Catholic Church to read.

 

[JRKH]

Here is my advice from a Baptists point of view; stop trying to convert him. Don’t even go there. Don’t ask him to attend mass or bible study with you. He is NOT ready for this. We are taught that Christ died on the cross to “fulfill” the gap that priest were once required to fill so that we could have a “direct” line to God without the need of others. So anything you say beyond that is really mute. If you want him to start thinking about the foundation of his entire faith and understanding of God, you have to start by being very knowledgeable of the protestant bible (not saying that your not!!!). You have to be able to pull solely from that. For me, it was Matthew 16:19(??) that broke my foundation. I started to realize that my understanding was missing something vital. Men (priests) do actually have the power to forgive sins. Which is completely opposite of what I was taught. It was undeniable (and by that I mean, CHRIST made it undeniable to me…not logic, but GOD). It took me over a year (and I am still not FULLY there) to accept this. I had to contemplate, pray and ask advice from both sides! It is a long, INTERNAL, pride-shattering process. Your only job is to be there to answer questions. Don’t forget that you can only do one of two things for him; push him away or answer his questions. Beyond that, even living the example, is up to him and his perceptions and how God is working in him…hope that helps and good luck!

An excellent post…right on the money…

I would also add that, in addition to being available to answer questions, pray for the grace to ask the right questions…
Questions that will not “challenge” his faith or understanding but rather to pique his curiosity and help him to dig deeper.

Peace
James

 

[House_Harkonnen]

I know this boy, and he calls himself a “Baptist-Evangelical”, and I try to convince him why he should convert to the Catholic Church, but he only says “Our prayers don’t need to go through priests, not the Pope, only to Jesus.” He is also a Bible-literalist, and he is incredibly stubborn. He says purgatory doesn’t exist, and even when presented with Biblical evidence supporting the Papacy, he ignores it. He also says “Catholics aren’t Christians…Christian’s don’t have mass.” He defines a Christian as “Someone who has a personal relationship with Jesus.” When I ask him what that means he, is vague and doesn’t really describe it. He n’y says “Someone who knows they are going to heaven”. He is exhausting! How do I convert him and explain the doctrine of the true Church?

You can start by not arguing about religion anymore.

*“Win an argument, lose a soul”. *

If you win do you think he is going to drop everything and join RCIA? I doubt it. And it never worked for me, on either side of the Tiber.

You could probably start by demonstrating with your life the grace you have received in word and sacrament.

 

[Adamski]

I know this boy, and he calls himself a “Baptist-Evangelical”, and I try to convince him why he should convert to the Catholic Church, but he only says “Our prayers don’t need to go through priests, not the Pope, only to Jesus.” He is also a Bible-literalist, and he is incredibly stubborn. He says purgatory doesn’t exist, and even when presented with Biblical evidence supporting the Papacy, he ignores it. He also says “Catholics aren’t Christians…Christian’s don’t have mass.” He defines a Christian as “Someone who has a personal relationship with Jesus.” When I ask him what that means he, is vague and doesn’t really describe it. He n’y says “Someone who knows they are going to heaven”. He is exhausting! How do I convert him and explain the doctrine of the true Church?

If he is a bible literalist show him
James 2:24
1 Tim 3:15
John 6:53
That should be a good start but I could list 100 versus he should have trouble with

 

[Irishgal49]

This topic should probably have been under Traditional Catholisism rather than non- catholic I guess.
Anyway, I think your intentions to convert this individual are noble, but don’t get your hopes up to much. Usually Protestants (at least the hardcores) especially Pentecostals are quite locked on their own view on the world.
Some people wouldn’t change their mind even if Mama Mary appared to them and told them to do so.
If he is only throwing out arguments and accusations I don’t see this as any other than a huge waste of time for you unfortunately.
If he asks sincere questions on the other hand I think you should strive to answer him.

Yours in Mary and Christ

• MarianCatholic

If your goal is to “convert” forget it. No one likes to be a conquest no matter how noble your intentions. If you would share AND listen, you might find ways to share your Catholic faith in a way that could plant seeds. Start with areas on which you agree. Pro-life??? Love Jesus??? Love the Bible??? Start a prayer group??? Then you can gently show what you believe and why and listen, really listen, to what this person believes and why. But your title, “How do I DEAL with this PROTESTANT” pretty much says it all for me. And no worries…I am no better. I guess I like the idea of witnessing with my actions, building bridges on what we have in common (our love of Jesus) and then, when they bring it up or the occasion arises, share bits of our faith. I often say, “It’s lunchtime I’m going to noon Mass, back in 45.” I always tell the team where I am and this is a gentle sharing. I’ve had a couple questions already and not being too gung ho really makes a difference. It lets you plant some seeds. My home parish pastor always said: “There is no worse death than being preached to death.”

I always pray that God shows me how much He loves them and let me see them through His eyes. Then they no longer become a potential convert, but someone who is endlessly loved by God. Then I share out of that glimpse and it no longer becomes a tolerance contest but a divine love that comes from our hearts. I am far from it, but that’s what makes people want what you have.

Put away the hammer, those are only used to nail people to crosses. He will celebrate Jesus in you when he (or she) knows you truly care. I don’t like someone slamming Bible verses at me and Protestants are often way more Bible proficient than a lot of Catholics. Stay away from that–that just gets people to dig in their heels more firmly because now he feels he has no choice but to defend his faith. Become a friend and you might have a better outcome. Bless you.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I know this boy, and he calls himself a “Baptist-Evangelical”, and I try to convince him why he should convert to the Catholic Church, but he only says “Our prayers don’t need to go through priests, not the Pope, only to Jesus.” He is also a Bible-literalist, and he is incredibly stubborn. He says purgatory doesn’t exist, and even when presented with Biblical evidence supporting the Papacy, he ignores it. He also says “Catholics aren’t Christians…Christian’s don’t have mass.” He defines a Christian as “Someone who has a personal relationship with Jesus.” When I ask him what that means he, is vague and doesn’t really describe it. He n’y says “Someone who knows they are going to heaven”. He is exhausting! How do I convert him and explain the doctrine of the true Church?

In such a case you are walking into a minefield so you have to be careful with every step you take.

You need to be able to defend against every argument and accusation he makes against you. But you must also know how to carefully show him elements of your Catholicism in a gentle way. It seems like he was raised in a home where his Evangelical belief is probably all he knows, so you’re starting with a wall already erected to deflect Catholicism. It’s important when he asks to show him why the Catholic Church does and believes certain things, so that his eyes are opened. But it must done in an entirely charitable way, otherwise you’ll probably turn him off for good and it might damage your friendship.

It’s important for him to know how the early Church worshiped and lived out the faith. What hit me on the head was when I first read this quote from Irenaeus:
*
Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 2)
The heretics follow neither Scripture nor tradition.

1. When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, “But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world.” 1 Corinthians 2:6 And this wisdom each one of them alleges to be the fiction of his own inventing, forsooth; so that, according to their idea, the truth properly resides at one time in Valentinus, at another in Marcion, at another in Cerinthus, then afterwards in Basilides, or has even been indifferently in any other opponent, who could speak nothing pertaining to salvation. For every one of these men, being altogether of a perverse disposition, depraving the system of truth, is not ashamed to preach himself.

2.** But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth.** For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.

1. Such are the adversaries with whom we have to deal, my very dear friend, endeavouring like slippery serpents to escape at all points. Where-fore they must be opposed at all points, if per-chance, by cutting off their retreat, we may succeed in turning them back to the truth. For, though it is not an easy thing for a soul under the influence of error to repent, yet, on the other hand, it is not altogether impossible to escape from error when the truth is brought alongside it.*

 

[CuriousMike]

I’m glad I decided to “hit the forums” this afternoon, since I can finally contribute to something that I have at least some knowledge about, having dealt with such individuals myself.

If you want to debate scripture, then I STRONGLY recommend that you find the verses that can only be interpreted quite literally (Examples below), and STUDY, STUDY, STUDY the surrounding context and most importantly UNDERSTAND what the message is. Use Bible Commentaries from both “sides” as necessary to gain a more rounded opinion.
You’ll probably find when using scripture that some Protestants will either flat-out deny what you are telling them (Unless you SHOW them the verse(s)), or look up the reference and tell you, “That verse was taken out of context by so-and-so, therefore, they (+ you and Catholicism) are wrong.”

Unless you are very competent with the scripture, which many of us (Including Non-Denominational/Protestant) are not, then stay WELL CLEAR of biblical debate, since you will only hurt, scare, upset or disappoint these people - which could very well result in this person (esp. if they are young) deserting their faith altogether. Why? Well, they will feel deceived, and misinformed and worried about who has the answers.

As an FYI, a couple of verses you can use in debate that debunk two common myths. (With thanks to member “PJM” for educating me on such matters):

~ John 6 (particularly towards the end) explains,
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” (John 6:51 ESV). This defends Christ’s Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist. We see the truth in this as many of Christ’s followers desert him because what he said was “hard saying,” they cannot accept his miracle or his promise.

~ In Matthew 16 Jesus gives his disciples the power (and/or authority) to forgive the sins of people, therefore, this is evidence for Confession,
“He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar- Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mt 16:15-19 ESV).

I am 100% certain there are more verses like this that parallel the two gospels I have included above, and remembering the Gospels are a GREAT place to start - since they seem to be the grounding of the Protestant belief. If you really want to win arguments, above is what you can use to break the foundation of their belief, and thus debunk it from the outset.

But, as I said before, do be careful with the younger folk, as they may see deception in what they’ve been taught, and abandon their faith, questioning who has the right answers.
However, I’ve used the above (particularly Matthew) or shown people these verses and gotten the excuse, “out of context” or “You can’t get that much out of 4 verses” from said persons. It can be frustrating, so be patient (No pressure) fand remember that only God can ultimately change their hearts.

My recommendation: Show the truth of the Catholic faith by your life (Live by example), including your works and devotion to God.
If you are presented with “these people” regularly, pray much and prepare a “repertoire” of Bible references and information that you can use to refute people’s ill-conceived ideas about the Church. Speak with your local Priest, find apologetics.
Most importantly, if this person is in your age bracket (i.e. It isn’t Adult vs. Child), develop a relationship with this person, so they can see your life, and how you interact with your faith, and develop trust in your belief. You might find the questions are more forthcoming, and that discussion you have are responded to “better.”

God Bless You for trying, and I hope all goes well for you!

 

[JRKH]

Curious Mike,

Great Post….

Yes - we have to be careful when discussing matters of Scripture with SS people. This is very important. We need to be prepared to move slowly and simply to plant seeds, not of discontent or concern, but of deeper understanding.

Such conversations require much time and patience.

Peace
James

 

[Stilldreamn]

I made this same sort of mistake a number of times.

Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis have said to the Church that she does not grow by proselytization, but by attraction to a heroic mode of life. One in service to the poor, sacrifice in the penance of the cross, a fully frequented sacramental life, with intense prayer and study onto due discretion.

^This.
Ask your friend to help you in a work of mercy in your parish. Sometimes although the ears may be stopped up, the eyes will see.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Here is my advice from a Baptists point of view; stop trying to convert him. Don’t even go there. Don’t ask him to attend mass or bible study with you. He is NOT ready for this. We are taught that Christ died on the cross to “fulfill” the gap that priest were once required to fill so that we could have a “direct” line to God without the need of others. So anything you say beyond that is really mute. If you want him to start thinking about the foundation of his entire faith and understanding of God, you have to start by being very knowledgeable of the protestant bible (not saying that your not!!!). You have to be able to pull solely from that. For me, it was Matthew 16:19(??) that broke my foundation. I started to realize that my understanding was missing something vital. Men (priests) do actually have the power to forgive sins. Which is completely opposite of what I was taught. It was undeniable (and by that I mean, CHRIST made it undeniable to me…not logic, but GOD). It took me over a year (and I am still not FULLY there) to accept this. I had to contemplate, pray and ask advice from both sides! It is a long, INTERNAL, pride-shattering process. Your only job is to be there to answer questions. Don’t forget that you can only do one of two things for him; push him away or answer his questions. Beyond that, even living the example, is up to him and his perceptions and how God is working in him…hope that helps and good luck!

Very nice post. Thanks for sharing this perspective.

Peace,
Robert