How do I explain God's approval of OT violence

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Hello, I was recently talking to my cousin and I asked him if he believed in God. He told me that he had read the Bible and was a little unsettled by what he read. He told me that he could not believe or put his faith in a god who would do the things that the Bible says that our God did. He pointed to situations like when God chose to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and also when God seemingly capriciously commanded the Israelites to destroy every city and town, men, women, children and animals, that inhabited the area that he gave the Israelites. The Bible says that God is the same yesterday, today and forever and that God is love, so, how could a loving God approve of the killing of people, including innocent children in situation that amount to genocide.
I wanted to tell him that I did not have the answer but, I have faith that there was a good reason. The problem is, I know him and I know that answer wouldn’t fly so, I’ve turned to the experts. I want so much to share the love of Jesus with him.
Thank you,
Chris
 
Well is his problem that he doesn’t think God should have given all those creatures life in the first place, or is it that he doesn’t think God has the right to take that life away when His creations reject Him and turn instead to sin? Would he feel better to know those people lived a few years longer on Earth, then went to eternal damnation, all the while on Earth serving as a polluting influence on His chosen people? How is that a benefit?
 
I don’t know that God is violent in the OT, certainly man is, and man interprets God to make violent demands…But God puts that right. I mean if nothing else, the OT is a story about the chosen people constantly getting it wrong, constantly breaking the Covenant God has made with them. They misunderstand His message, insisting on force and violence, until Jesus appears and puts them right, not by forcing a revolution, but by dieing on the Cross. The Old Testament is a Revelation of God, His Word, like a barely heard whisper at first, becomes definitive in the Incarnation of the divine Word in the flesh. Jesus Christ reveals God to us, He is the Law, and He says:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies* and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[biblelvb]Matt 5:38-42[/biblelvb]*
 
The Bible says that God is the same yesterday, today and forever and that God is love, so, how could a loving God approve of the killing of people, including innocent children in situation that amount to genocide.

God portrayed in the OT can be troubling. The ancient people conceived of God in human terms. He was a living god as opposed to seeing something like the sun as god. As such, the authors of the OT assigned, correctly or not, human attribbutes to God and anger is as much a human attribute as love. You can also see examples of divine anger in the NT (MT 5:22 and John 3:36).

But, see Psalm 30:5 “His anger is but for a moment; his favor is for a lifetime”.

You will never be able to use logic to explani faith.
 
It is indeed true that “God is the same yesterday, today and forever.” But what God REVEALS about Himself is not always the same throughout time.
 
Since Catholics don’t read the Bible literally, there is nothing wrong in saying that it may well be that the writers attributed things to God because it was their view of the world.
 
We humans often interpret events with a narrow perspective. But God Who is everlasting sees the broader picture. God does things for the greater good.

Maybe God destroyed Sodom and Gemorrha because the sins would have spread to other neighboring areas at that point in time reasonably figuring it would preserve more souls than the number that would have been destroyed by the sins. Maybe God destroyed Sodom and Gemorrha to make an example out of them for all eternity as a lesson to fear God thus figuring it would save more people than died there. The specific reasons for which these killings were done are just fallible guesses of mine. What i can say for certain is that God did it for the greater good.

It is frustrating to not have a certain answer sometimes. i know. But this is all part of the test. For if God explicitly revealed Himself to you, faith would no longer reside in you, but sight. In this world, this test, we are bound to walk by faith and not by sight.

Signed,

an expert;)
 
=Irishquad;6136430]Hello, I was recently talking to my cousin and I asked him if he believed in God. He told me that he had read the Bible and was a little unsettled by what he read. He told me that he could not believe or put his faith in a god who would do the things that the Bible says that our God did. He pointed to situations like when God chose to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and also when God seemingly capriciously commanded the Israelites to destroy every city and town, men, women, children and animals, that inhabited the area that he gave the Israelites. The Bible says that God is the same yesterday, today and forever and that God is love, so, how could a loving God approve of the killing of people, including innocent children in situation that amount to genocide.
I wanted to tell him that I did not have the answer but, I have faith that there was a good reason. The problem is, I know him and I know that answer wouldn’t fly so, I’ve turned to the experts. I want so much to share the love of Jesus with him.
Thank you,
Chris
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***Dear friend in Christ,

Here are a couple of points you MIGHT make?

It is the same God that became “Incarnate-God & man” which is even more restrictive than me and you becomming common earth worms, and retaining our minds, intellects and freewill.

For example we would have the ability to love BUT NO WAY to manifest it. God’s restrictions by becomming human are even more severe.

God died the most abasing and painful death known to society in order to Redeem us; that is to make heaven a POSSIBILITY. Because God loves us!

Ask your friend the origin of his / her Mind, Intellect and frewill. Each of these can be demonistrated and proven to exist; YET they cannot be quantified.

For example what color, shape, size is your mind [not brain which is a physical reality] but yor mind? You can’t because they are SPIRITUAL THINGS [like God Himself :D].

They can’t come our parents who too are physical. One can’t share what one does not possess to pass on. So if your friend exist, then [our term] God must exist!

As to the Bible history. Ask your friend to provide even a single example where there is “no cause and effect.” By this I mean, each and every example of what we deem to be crulety steems either from others evil actions and God’s pay-back; or as a preventive measure to protect as much as possible, while still allowing one to exercise there freewills, in the practice of Yahweh God ONLY worship.

Both cases of the GREATER GOOD.👍

God is simply incapable of evil*, however God is and must be Fair and Just. And our way’s fall FAR short of God’s way’s, methods and understanding.**

God endeavors with much greater effort and frequency to be in a Personal relationship with us; than we with Him.

God called Abraham,. Moses, David and Solomon, the Prophets, His Mother MAry, John the Baptist, His Apostles; and yes, even you and me.

Love and prayers,

Pat
 
There are things in the OT that bother me sometimes, but the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah has never been one of them. Abraham, speaking with God, pleads for Him to spare the city, and finally gets God to agree to spare it if there are ten righteous men in the city. God destroys the city, from which we can gather that were not ten righteous men in the city - in fact it seems that the only righteous man was Lot, and God made special provisions to get Lot out of there before the destruction. So on the one hand, we have the example of the city’s total depravity, and on the other hand, God’s willingness to show mercy and His actual exercise of mercy in rescuing Lot and his family. God destroys sin and rescues righteousness.

I think it’s very helpful to be aware of the multiple senses of Scripture - literal, allegorical, moral, and anagogical. They are discussed briefly in the Catechism, and there is a lot more elsewhere. Most Protestants seem either to read the Bible only literally, or only in a very loose allegorical way, discounting the literal. But the Catholic Church understands and teaches that Scripture functions on multiple levels simultaneously.

Finally, I think it’s ok to be uncomfortable with parts of the Bible. I know I am. I recognize the limitations of my human understanding and allow the discomfort I feel to lead me to a deeper relationship with God and with Scripture. After all - why should we be “comfortable” with GOD?!
 
DOShea said:
Well is his problem that he doesn’t think God should have given all those creatures life in the first place, or is it that he doesn’t think God has the right to take that life away when His creations reject Him and turn instead to sin? Would he feel better to know those people lived a few years longer on Earth, then went to eternal damnation, all the while on Earth serving as a polluting influence on His chosen people? How is that a benefit?
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excellent!! 🙂
 
when i am at home reading the OT, things strike me as odd to… although i have to add… not as much as in the past. the more i follow Jesus, attend daily Mass… etc, etc… the more i understand things. Whe i am at the Real Presence, during Mass, i never doubt much of what i hear… the Word is best heard in the Real Presence … which should go without saying but…

anyway, If people sell their souls to the devil and worship him, which is technically what happens when people stay in sin & refuse to repent, they pollute not only themselves but others… and draw others away from God and his laws… so i have no problme with God taking them out of the wolrd so they cannot do this any longer. God’s spirit does not always strive with man, as the Word says… Life belongs to God and He has the right to take it.

there are some things that are mor importnat to God than just living, esp when living means living in defiance of God.

after so many sins are committed a person doens’t even care much about changing… so it seems, although no soul is hopeless w/ Christ…

anyway, there is cap punishment, war and self-defense as justifiable killing. In a war, if some of the vanquished are allowed to live… they could cause further rebellion and problems…

i could go on but no time…
 
what is unfathomable to me is that God doesn’t intercede NOW (or so it seems) and do something “violent”…

to stop abortion and all the other sick things going on…

God doesn’t change but obviously something changed… from old to new testamnet times…

(the obvious answer is Jesus… but there are always questions…) i don’t know whuy God allows this much evil for this long a time without… intervening… (again: So it SEEMS)
 
=distracted;6156337]what is unfathomable to me is that God doesn’t intercede NOW (or so it seems) and do something “violent”…
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to stop abortion and all the other sick things going on…
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God doesn’t change but obviously something changed… from old to new testamnet times…
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(the obvious answer is Jesus… but there are always questions…) i don’t know whuy God allows this much evil for this long a time without… intervening… (again: So it SEEMS)
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***God remains in charge.

It will happen in His tome and His way.

BUT don’t be shocked if its SOONER than later:eek:

Prepare the way of the Lord!

Love and prayers,

Pat***
 
PJM said:
***God remains in charge.

It will happen in His tome and His way.

BUT don’t be shocked if its SOONER than later:eek:

Prepare the way of the Lord!

Love and prayers,

Pat***
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37 yrs of baby-killing can hardly be called “sooner”… 😦
 
Here’s my explanation after my personal reading up to the book of Samuel:

First of all, God created man so that he should never die. Man forfeited his life and brought death into the picture through his act of defiance towards God- the author and sustainer of all life. He also gave us the privilege of being co-creators in life with the ability to have sex and make babies. Humanity did so, yet continued to sin and teach their offspring to sin and bring more evil, pain, and death into the world. God did not want for this to continue, but he still had to respect the free will he gave humans to act in defiance of life. Since humanity had nothing to give to God which could atone for their offenses and replace what they had lost (sanctifying grace), God had to become man himself and pay the debt for everybody else.

However, he had to prepare humanity to accept his Son’s Gospel and eventual sacrifice , all the while still respecting their free will. God chose Abraham with his wife Sarah, co-creators of life, to bring forth a nation that would follow God’s commandments and bring humanity to a state of readiness where they would be willing to accept his Son. (As John the Baptist said, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”’ and as prophesied by Isaiah, ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, make straight his paths.’) Otherwise, Jesus would come, and everyone would ignore him in preference to their sinful defiance of God and no salvation would result. God chose the nation of Israel not because they were holy, but because everyone else was just too utterly wicked to work with (Dt 9: 1-6). God saw that he would be able to at least get somewhere with Israel. It’s very fitting that Israel means “struggle with God.”

God had to work with the disobedient nation of Israel in order to prepare humanity for Jesus Christ. This preparedness involved a willingness to follow God’s commandments, respect for God’s authority, and above all monotheism. Humanity had to become holy, just as God is holy. This was especially difficult because the neighboring tribes in the promised land wanted nothing to do with Yahweh. Time and time again in the OT we see the Israelites mingling with the pagan nations and turning away from God. The Israelites were tempted* very* easily.

God saw that the only way to keep the Israelites loyal to him was to get rid of the nations that were not willing to follow the Giver of Life. He saw it just to have the Israelites kill the nations themselves in order to solidify their resolve against worshipping the pagan gods. Eventually, God saw that humanity was ready for the message and sacrifice of his Son, Jesus Christ. With Jesus’ death and resurrection humanity is now redeemed. The Old Covenant has served its purpose and become obsolete, and the New Covenant in Jesus’ flesh and blood has saved the righteous who had gone before him and will save the righteous who come after him.

Remember, every human has forfeited his life through the sin of Adam, not to mention all the sins we commit on a daily basis. Everyone dies eventually, whether by natural means or by the edge of the sword. People get hung up on God’s ending of tons of people’s natural lives in the Old Testament, yet don’t realize that God is killing thousands of people on a daily basis even today. All of us must die someday because our sin, yet we will all be justly judged and receive an eternal punishment or resurrection afterwards.
 
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