How do I explain that the spiritual spiritual realities absolute and not relative?

[atassina]

How do I explain that the spiritual realities are absolute and not relative? I’m hoping to re-evangelize my brothers.

How do I explain to them and my friends that God and the spiritual realities are “not just a Catholic thing”?

I suppose this would also apply to my coworkers and any secular person that I encounter.

 

[Micosil]

How do I explain that the spiritual realities are absolute and not relative? I’m hoping to re-evangelize my brothers.

How do I explain to them and my friends that God and the spiritual realities are “not just a Catholic thing”?

I suppose this would also apply to my coworkers and any secular person that I encounter.

I heard Fr. Barron comment on this somewhere, maybe in his Catholicism DVD series, or one of his YouTube videos… it’s more of a way to reason about the existence of the spiritual world, if you already believe in God.

Basically, it goes, it’d be odd to think that between the infinite being of God, and the finite physical world we live in, there’s a vacuum of nothingness; it makes more sense if a panoply of a different kind of existence were there. The beings of this “other kind of existence” are what we call angels.

 

[atassina]

This really doesn’t answer the gist of my question. How would you answer this question? The Christ Spirit is love and why have rules? There are no absolutes in the spiritual life. After all, we are all going to happiness forever. God is who I think he is.

 

[JohnR77]

Sorry, that my post does not directly answer your question, but below Peter Kreeft shows in a comical way that the supposed logic of Relativism is self contradictory.
(If you think about it too hard, it can give you headache.)

The Logic of Relativism by Peter Kreeft

www.envoymagazine.com

**
** 1. Today’s ideas are truer than yesterday’s ideas. Of course, that will be yesterday’s idea tomorrow.
2. Discriminating people don’t discriminate.
3. Extremism is extremely bad.
4. Don’t trust words.
5. Throughout history there has never been a Utopia. Therefore history proves that there will be one soon.

1. Forbidding things is forbidden. You
   shouldn’t ever say shouldn’t."
2. You may worship any God but God.
3. All other cultures are good except Western culture. Western culture is bad. All other cultures are good. Western culture is the only one that believes that all cultures are right. All other cultures believe that Western culture is wrong. Therefore all other cultures are right except Western culture.
4. The hell with hell. People who believe in damnation should be damned. The idea that some ideas are damnable ideas is a damnable idea.
5. There is no truth. And that’s the truth.
6. There are abso*lutely no absolutes.
7. Men and women are the same. Especially women.
8. There are no universal truths. Not anywhere.
9. You can be cer*tain that all claims to certainty are arrogant nonsense.
10. The Catholic Church has done only one thing right. In 1966 she put the “Index of Forbidden Books” on the Index. Censorship should be censored.
11. You must never tolerate any intolerance
12. Manifestoes are intolerant. We need to get rid of all manifes*toes. This is a manifesto.
13. Love sins, hate sinners. Saints say they are sinners, and they hate sins. Saints are stupid.
14. We must be very religious about having no religion.
15. Spirituality" is good but “religion” is dangerous because it believes in things like spirits.
16. Invest in the future. It’s the dimension of time that doesn’t exist.
17. We have a right to clean air because we have a right to breathe dirty words.
18. The government knows best, unless it’s a government elected by people who don’t vote for Democrats.
19. The government knows what’s best for the people better than the people do. Government is only people.
    25. Judgmentalism is a very bad thing.
20. Don’t be negative.
21. All men are equal except those who think some are superior.
22. Conserve the environment, conserve energy, and conserve endangered wildlife, but don’t be conservative.
23. There is no infallible institution in this world. This must be true because the ACLU says so.
24. All reasoning is only rationalizing. And that’s not just rationalizing.
25. Abolish capi*tal punishment Capital punishment kills killers. But abortion is okay, because that kills only the innocent.
26. Actually, there’s no inconsistency in being against capital punishment and for abortion, for capital punishment kills kill*ers, and abortionist are killers. Pro-abortionist certainly don’t want abortionists killed.
27. The proletariat will save the world-by voting for rich liberals.
28. Trust the experts (us). We need you because we need your vote. You need us because you need our superior wisdom. Our superior wisdom says there is no such thing as superior wisdom.
29. All philosophies are culturally relative. All are blinded by their cultural limitations. Except that one.
30. Everyone is prejudiced except us.
31. Trust us. We are your servants. We will spend your money for you.
32. There is noth*ing eternal. Ever.
33. There is no “meaning of life.” That’s the meaning of life.
34. All life’s problems are solved by good economics. We know how to spend your money. But the love of money is the root of all evil. So don’t be a capitalist.
35. Deconstructionism, the “state of the art” literary the*ory, means that a book can mean anything you want it to mean-unless you want it to mean what the author wanted it to mean.
36. “All men are created equal.” But “all” is stereotyping. And “men” is gender-exclusive (even though everyone who ever used it for 1000 years meant by it “male AND female human beings”), and “are” is dogmatic. And “created” is religious (spit! cough!) And “equal” is saccharin.
37. There are only two kinds of people: those who are so simplistic that they think there are only two kinds of people, and those who are broad minded like us.

 

[JohnR77]

1.        "Do I contradict  myself? Very well, then, I contradict myself. I am large, I contain  multitudes." (Walt Whitman, "Song of Myself") And therefore, since I  contradict myself, I am small, I contain nothing.

2. “Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.” And therefore, to be consistently inconsistent, it isn’t.
3. We are better than you are because we don’t believe that we are better than you are.
4. The Far Left and the Far Right are totally opposite. You can see it in the pictures: Stalin had a much better mustache than Hitler.
5. There is no such thing as the “Far Left.” There is only Far Right. In fact, all Right is Far Right.
6. The idea that all ideas are equal is equal to the idea that not all ideas are equal, if all ideas are equal.
7. Be open minded to all ideas. But not to the idea that perhaps you should not be open minded to all ideas.
8. I love all human beings. I hate only pro-lifers.
9. We should be totally free, free to contradict ourselves. And therefore we shouldn’t be.
10. There are no absolutes. Except sex.
11. There’s no “objective truth,” just personal opinions. And that’s not just a personal opinion.
12. We hate censorship. We love speech codes.
13. Good skeptics place limits to thought, and do not claim to think beyond that limit. To think a limit, you have to think both sides of that limit.
14. Never say “never.”
15. Our ancestors were apes, and we will teach our descendants to believe that.
16. The idea of “heresies” is a heresy.

 

[JohnR77]

1. Logic is a fake. It’s a dead white male chauvinist plot to rape the minds of women. And I’ll prove it
2. The French hate us. We do not hate them. They are wiser than we are.
3. We respect anyone who does not respect us.
4. Everything is relative. A bird is only an egg’s clever way of making more egg s.
5. The idea of superiority is a very inferior idea.
6. Don’t trust anyone else’s philosophy. That’s my philosophy, and you can trust it.
7. People who believe in evil are evil.
8. I believe we should believe only what’s been proved. But I can’t prove that.
9. “Sola scientia” is like “sola scriptura.” It says that you can be certain only of what science has proved. But science hasn’t proved that.
10. How shall we think rightly about orthodoxies? (“Orthodoxy” means “right thinking.”) Here’s how: All orthodoxies are dangerous things. That’s our orthodoxy.
11. Our reasoning is only rationalizing of our animal desires and brain chemistry. It takes reason to see through the popular superstition that reason is anything more than that.
12. There are many ways of understanding the Koran. And they are all valid. Except for the Koranic one.
13. We believe what we believe only because Society has conditioned us to believe it. And Society has conditioned us to believe that. But some unenlightened people don’t believe it.
14. The difference between science and religion is that science abandons ideas that are irrational, especially ideas that are logically self-contradictory, while religion stubbornly keeps believing them, and calls unbelievers wrong. And if you don’t believe that, you’re wrong.
15. Only inferior people believe that some people are superior to others.
16. We are humane. We are compassionate. We believe that pain is the only evil. And therefore we approve or partial-birth abortion, which involves crushing the skulls of half-born babies and jabbing a scissors into the back of their neck.
17. It’s bad to be good, and it’s good to be had. For goodness is dull conformity, but badness is creative nonconformity. In fact, the only thing that’s bad is goodness. Everything else is okay. And the only thing that’s good is badness. Everything else is conformity.
18. Conform to nonconformity.
19. Conservatives don’t believe there is any such thing as subjective truth, a truth that’s true for one person but not for another. That belief is true for them but not for us.
20. I believe truth is objective." 'Well, that’s true for you."
21. Josh: “I believe it’s wrong for one person to impose his personal opinion on someone else.”
22. Kristen: “Then how dare you try to impose that personal opinion of yours on me?”
23. We are so open-minded and tolerant and unprejudiced that if you disagree with us, you must be very closed-minded and intolerant and prejudiced. And your hairdo is probably stupid looking too.
    83 “There is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so.” Therefore if I think that there is something good or bad that is not made good or bad by thinking, my thinking will make that so too.
24. Egalitarians are superior to elitists.
25. “For the New York Times, the only good Catholic is a bad Catholic.” (Fr. Richard John Neuhaus).
26. It is better to travel hopefully than to arrive. And therefore we can only hope never to arrive.
27. Everything changes, even the standards of measurement. We don’t use iron yardsticks. We use eels.
28. We believe in progress, and we don’t believe in unchanging goals. So the station is moving as fast as the train. That’s progress.
29. Question authority. And say that authoritatively.
30. All cultures are right except ours. Ours is the only one that believes that all cultures are right.
31. Nothing is forbidden here. So don’t you dare bring in some repressive law!
32. Everybody’s opinion is true. No opinion is simply wrong. But some people have the opinion that not everybody’s opinion is true. They’re wrong.
33. This is getting tiresome, so I’ll let you fill in the rest.

Dr. Peter Kreeft is the author of nearly 50 books. When he is not writing books, he somehow finds the time to be a professor of philosophy at Boston College.

 

[JohnR77]

defendingthebride.com/mc/truth.html#Absolute

Truth is
ABSOLUTE

                      It is not enough to be just sincere in our worship of              God. We must embrace the One True God. 


         John 4:24 
        “ … those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth.” 

        
         John 16:2                
        “They will expel you from the synagogues; in fact, the hour is              coming when everyone who kills you will think he is offering worship              to God.”    Sincerity is not enough because Truth is not              subjective. 
         

 The Fall from Grace
         
        Genesis 2:16-17  and   3:4-5
        “The LORD God gave man this order:  ‘You are free to eat from any of              the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and              bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it              you are surely doomed to die.’  . . . 
        But the serpent said to the woman:  ‘You certainly will not die!               No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be              opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is              bad.’ ”


 There is a real danger that we will      follow the path that Adam and Eve took in the Garden of Eden.  When they ate      from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that eating symbolized their      usurping God’s role in determining what it is that we may or may not do.       They wanted to be like “gods”  knowing and deciding for themselves what is      good and what is bad, instead of following what God had revealed.       Perhaps what God had revealed did not make sense to them, but it was still      wrong to disobey.


         In Pope John Paul II’s encyclical “Veritatis              Splendor,”  section 35, we read,  
          “With this imagery (the above              passage in Genesis), Revelation teaches that the power to decide what is good              and what is evil does not belong to man, but to God alone. The man              is certainly free, inasmuch as he can understand and accept God’s              commands. And he possesses an extremely far-reaching freedom, since              he can eat ‘of every tree of the garden.’ But his freedom is not              unlimited: it must halt before the ‘tree of the knowledge of good              and evil,’ for it is called to accept the moral law given by God. In              fact, human freedom finds its authentic and complete fulfillment              precisely in the acceptance of that law. God, who alone is good,              knows perfectly what is good for man, and by virtue of his very love              proposes this good to man in the commandments. God’s law does not              reduce, much less do away with human freedom; rather, it protects              and promotes that freedom.” 
             The “tree” represents not just to be able to know the              difference between good and evil, but the claim to be able to              determine by our own reasoning the standards to which we are              obligated to conform our lives.  Even if a person follows his              conscience that does not thereby make his choice a good choice.  We              are not the arbiters of truth.  Rather we have the obligation to              discover the objective and absolute truths that God has revealed and              form our conscience by it. 


         We are free to drive to a destination not if we drive wherever              and however we might choose, but only if we drive in the right              direction and obey the traffic laws.   Real freedom is to              know and submit to God’s laws.  Freedom is not to choose whatever we              desire or to decide what is reality, because truth and reality don’t              come from within us.  God is Truth.  John 14:6.   Truth comes from              outside ourselves.  In Genesis 11, in the Tower of Babel              incident, we learn that we cannot get to heaven according to our own              plan.  We are obligated to search for God’s plan and follow it.  If              a person thinks that he can be free by braking a law that God has              revealed through His Church, then he could be compared to a person              who wants to brake the law of gravity by jumping from a ten story              building.   He will not brake the law of gravity.   He will brake              himself against the law.

.

 

[JohnR77]

Hosea 4:6
“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge, I reject you from being a priest to me. And since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.”

         Hosea 6:6                
        “For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of              God, rather than burnt offerings.” 


         Proverbs 19:2 
        “Without knowledge even zeal is not good; and he who acts hastily,              blunders.” 


         Matthew 15:14    
        “If a blind person leads a blind person, both will fall into a pit.”             


         Luke 12:47-48                
        “That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make               preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten               severely; and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s  will but              acted in a way deserving of a severe beating  shall be beaten only              lightly.” 


         Their guilt is mitigated somewhat by their ignorance, but not              completely. 


         Acts 20:26-27                
        “And so I solemnly declare to you this day that I am not  responsible              for the blood of any of you, for I did not  shrink from proclaiming              to you the entire plan of God.” 
         
        Paul implies that he would have been responsible if he had  failed to              preach God’s plan to them. He knew that they had  an obligation to              follow it and therefore a need to know it.   If they had broken God’s              laws, then ignorance on their  part might have somewhat mitigated              their guilt, but they  still would have sinned.  God provided us the              opportunity  to know His saving Truth by sending His Son to teach us.               Jesus built His Church on Peter, gave it the charism of               Infallibility, and He promised that it would last till the  end of              time. 


         Matthew 16:18-19                 
        “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will  build my              church, and the powers of death shall not prevail  against it. I will              give you the keys of the kingdom of  heaven, and whatever you bind on              earth shall be bound in  heaven, and whatever you loose on earth              shall be loosed in  heaven.”   RSV 
        Cf. Isaiah 22: 15, 19-22  and 36: 1-3 


         Jesus ministers to us the Grace that makes us capable of              embracing His truth. 


         John 3:16-21 
        “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so  that              everyone who believes in him might not perish but  might have eternal              life…19 And this is the verdict, that  the light came into the world,              but people preferred  darkness to light, because their works were              evil. For  everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does               not come toward the light, so that his works might not be  exposed.              But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so  that his works              may be clearly seen as done in God.” 
         What  Saint Augustine said of the pagans of his time also               applies to today’s secular humanists:  “Such men often try  to              persuade others to live a good life without being  Christian …(but)              the kind of good life that really profits  anything is the one that              leads to unending life.  No one  can have real and solid hope of              unending life unless he  comes to know the life that is Christ.” 

        
         Our whole life long we  must strive for a deeper understanding              of God’s Truth with  our mind and a more devout embracing and living              out of it  with our heart. 


         Hebrews 2:1-3 
        “Therefore, we must attend all the more to what we have  heard, so              that we may not be carried away. For if the word  announced through              angels proved firm, and every  transgression and disobedience              received its just  recompense, how shall we escape if we ignore so              great a  salvation ?”

 

[fide]

How do I explain that the spiritual realities are absolute and not relative? I’m hoping to re-evangelize my brothers.

How do I explain to them and my friends that God and the spiritual realities are “not just a Catholic thing”?

I suppose this would also apply to my coworkers and any secular person that I encounter.

and:

atassina:

This really doesn’t answer the gist of my question. How would you answer this question? The Christ Spirit is love and why have rules? There are no absolutes in the spiritual life. After all, we are all going to happiness forever. God is who I think he is.

Jesus, and He alone among “religious founders,” has shown to us definitively what love is, and what truth is, and what life is. Jesus has shown the emptiness of relativism / subjectivism in living for us a life that is true and normative for human persons.

• He showed us love, in His sacred humanity, in laying down His life for others. This is love: it is self-gift, self-donation to and for the good of the other, because the other is loved. This is absolute, not relative. Love is grounded in the nature of God; man seeks and needs love because God made us in His image, the divine image. Thus to learn love, and to come into love, we must seek to come into union with the God who IS love.

The Triune God IS love - God whose life in eternity is a dynamo of Self-gift, Self-outpouring in the Divine Holy Trinity of Persons, each for the other.

God is who God IS, regardless of what any man thinks or assumes or projects or imagines He is. If God were only what a man thinks He is, who was that God before that man came into being and existence? God IS eternally; man is but a moment, and his thoughts are a breath and a moment, and last as long as God allows him to last. Who is man, to claim to define or limit God?

 

[atassina]

JohnR77:
You have done a tremendous job of answering my question(s). I am grateful to you. You have put an enormous amount of effort into your replies. I find this to be quite amazing. Thank you for your dedicated effort. Now I have a substantial source of material from which I can craft replies that are both pointed and winsome. Perhaps I will be able to plant some seed that will bear good fruit.

atassina

Is the following quote from an essay or a book by St. Augustine?

John 3:16-21
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life…19 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.”
What Saint Augustine said of the pagans of his time also applies to today’s secular humanists: “Such men often try to persuade others to live a good life without being Christian …(but) the kind of good life that really profits anything is the one that leads to unending life. No one can have real and solid hope of unending life unless he comes to know the life that is Christ.”

 

[PJM]

=atassina;12962541]How do I explain that the spiritual realities are absolute and not relative? I’m hoping to re-evangelize my brothers.

How do I explain to them and my friends that God and the spiritual realities are “not just a Catholic thing”?

I suppose this would also apply to my coworkers and any secular person that I encounter.

I am presuming by “spiritual realities” you mean “HOW does mortal man” emulate God who is 'Spirit and Truth" Jn.4:23-24? Based on Gen. 1:26-27

1st present this as a question:

How Does mortal man emulate God as is claimed in the 1st book of the bible?

Of ALL Created things in the Universe only One; only “man” has the ability to make complex things out of less complex things: a computer for example.

And only man can freely choose good or bad; right or wrong objectively.

And only man can decide for themselves to love God or to hate God

Isaiah 43: 7 & 21
“And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him.” & This people have I formed for myself, they shall shew forth my praise."

In order for man do do any of the above requires in an absolute sense all of the following:

a mind [not speaking here of our brain]

an intellect [not meaning our IQ]

and a freewill

Which ARE permanently attached to man’s e mortal Souls. AND each of which like God in John 4: 23-24 are ALSO Spiritual realities.

Only a foolish person would argue that man does not have for example a :freewill."

So ask them then to quantify for you their “freewill”

what is its weight, size, shape and color? Can’t be done; YET they exist. HOW is this possible except from GOD, who IS 'Spirit and truth"?

“Like MUST come from like” is not a foreign concept for science.

PRAY MUCH

Patrick

 

[signsnwonders]

How do I explain that the spiritual realities are absolute and not relative? I’m hoping to re-evangelize my brothers.

How do I explain to them and my friends that God and the spiritual realities are “not just a Catholic thing”?

I suppose this would also apply to my coworkers and any secular person that I encounter.

it depends on the people you know and what the church you go to believes and who is spirituality anointed-- with signs and wonders following

Seeing into the spirit realm. Sid Roth Interview with Gary Oates on Its Supernatural

Published on Aug 21, 2013
Seeing into the realm of the spirit is biblical and it did not originate with the devil. Unfortunately, in the church most Christians blame the devil for the things of God and blame GOD for the things of the devil. God wants us to see His kingdom NOW. Not only after you die or when Jesus comes back but NOW! ‘Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.’ (John 3:3) So what is Jesus saying? He is saying that if you are born again you can see the Kingdom of God. He didn’t say only after you die. It’s your birthright to see the kingdom of God right now!

youtu.be/RyG2rZbCOKE

one of my teachers was blake healey

I recently finished reading The Veil by Blake K Healy. Blake is a good guy.

He teaches at the Bethel Atlanta School of Supernatural Ministry. I’ve seen a lot of flaky stuff on the subject of the unseen realm – his book is not like that at all. It’s very real, very believable and very down to earth. I enjoyed reading it. He says he has been able to see clearly the unseen realm since he was a child. He never thought he was different – he thought everyone could see what he saw.

Until he reached a certain age where it became obvious to him that he was “different”. I liked his book because he didn’t make me feel excluded because I don’t “see” like he sees. Many people who have special giftings tend to give you that impression. He didn’t put himself on a pedestal at all. In fact, instead he tries to make “seeing” or “perceiving” the unseen realm something anyone can do. He even includes “exercises” in the back of the book to help you get started. Very cool!

 

[atassina]

thanks. i especially like the suggestion you made about free will. a

 

[PJM]

=atassina;13038189]thanks. i especially like the suggestion you made about free will. a

You’re welcome.

Be sure to PRAY first:thumbsup: