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SnakeMauler
Guest
These are his list of “problems” with Christianity:
How do I answer his claims?
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ESMDHokie77
Guest
Christian problems:
- disobedience to God is not a finite problem.
- what?
- blah.
- Except Jesus was not only human, but God. A divine sacrifice.
- blah.
Church problems:
- I’m sure they teach NFP there too.
- prove it, about the Pope. no source, no credibility.
- Crusades were a just action in response to muslim aggression. They sadly became unjust by some human people.
- the Inquisition was kinda bad, yes, but most of the torture and executions were done by secular authority. it’s documented that ecclesiastical judgments were less harsh. The actual deaths from the inquisition are vastly inflated.
- prove it.
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danserr
Guest
- a). All crimes against God are infinite in nature because we sin against an infinite being, therefore it is fitting the punishment be infinite.
b). (another answer), hell is self-willed separation from God. As long as one continues to reject God, he will continue to merit hell. The crime is ongoing, therefore the punishment is. (Think of it as a criminal who goes to jail, but commits crimes while in jail and so continues to accrue further punishment. - What is he babbling about? Catholics do not endorse stoning unruly children.
3 and 5). These are not reasons to reject Christianity, they are reasons to reject the doctrine of biblical inerrancy, which is a different thing. Furthermore, those commands are highly culturally contingent, not binding today. He needs to actually consider those issues in context, not just throw them at you in a childish game of “gotcha.” For more on this see Paul Copan’s amazon.com/God-Moral-Monster-Making-Testament/dp/0801072751/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308923461&sr=1-1
The Church:
1). timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article5400568.ece
An article by an atheist who admits the value of Christianity for Africa. Furthermore, rates of HIV infection are higher in protestant than catholic countries, suggesting condoms are part of the problem not solution.
2). No, the pope has not moved known pedophiles. Otherwise, what does this prove? That Catholics are sinners and even priests are sinners? Very well, we admit this, this is not a secret. Sin affects everyone, we have always admitted as much. NT Wright said: “Jesus taught his followers a prayer that included them asking God for forgiveness, he obviously thought they needed it and would go on needed it.”
3). I would guess he knows nothing about the crusades. Assist him; this link is by Madden, the foremost crusades historian in America. catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0055.html
4). Same issue with inquisition. He probably knows little about it, and what does this prove anyway? The catholics are not perfect? That we sin? Granted, we admit as much ourselves.
4). What does he mean by institutionalized anti-antisemitism?
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followingtheway
Guest
- Disobeying infinite love deserves infinite punishment. And plus if you’re going to get out of Hell, are the people who are getting out will forget all the suffering, eventually
- Old Testament (traditional) law, abolished by Jesus (Romans 3:28)
- It’s war, and like I said Old Testament.
- Actually the sacrifice of Jesus replaces sacrifice of the old law.
- Same as number “2”
… - People are going to disobey, I go to High School, and some people don’t even use condoms!
- Many Protestant and Non-Denominational Churches molest children. Why doesn’t anyone hear about that? And plus, in the Jehovah’s Witness religion, if your child get raped in their congregation, you can’t report it unless there’s a second witness!.
3-4 Bring up Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, Pol Pot, Jared Lee Loughner and Communist North Korea. Oh and by the way you can’t judge a Religion by what the people do.
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Scoobyshme
Guest
Those are just for starters. His viewpoint is decidedly anti-Catholic. Rather than find out the facts, he’s relied on anti-Catholic information sources and a non-historic perspective on all these issues.
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Joe_5859
Guest
What is your relationship with this person? Family? Friend? Co-worker? Anonymous internet user?
In my experience, when people utilize the shotgun approach to anti-Catholicism by trotting out a laundry list of objections (that are almost always based on misconceptions and/or misinformation), honest dialogue is not something they’re really looking for. One cannot usually “argue” these people into the faith, even with the most accurate and articulate treatises.
The best thing is to pray for them regularly. As St. John Bosco said: love them and they’ll follow you anywhere. We are more convincing when we show true charity, concern, and compassion for people.
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DianaCC
Guest
- hell-infinite punishment for a small finite crime**
- stoning unruly children**
** 3. in Deuteronomy, God commands the hebrews to go to cities and if a city accepts peace, the hebrews should enslave everybody in it. if they don’t, the hebrews must kill every man and keep the children and virgins for themselves**
…which is the wisest way to deal with a potentially deadly neighbor whose culture values neither human life nor truthfulness in relations with outsiders.
** 4. jesus- accepting that jesus could absolve us of our sins is equivalent to accepting a human sacrifice as effective**
…yes, and if you don’t believe this and are baptized, then see Item 1.
** 5. the punishment for rape- marrying the raped girl and paying her father 50 shekels**
…which is the fairest solution for all three parties, because a rape victim is practically unmarriageable, the father is entitled to a refund of the dowry, and as far as the rapist is concerned, well, if you break it you pay for it.
** 1. teaching abstinence only in impoverished countries in africa. this has proved uneffective and has lead to the transmission of HIV and many other diseases**
…last time I checked, having sex is the normal way to transmit HIV and many other diseases.
** 2. harboring priests who have molested children. the pope himself has relocated priests who have done stuff like that in order to avoid them having to receive punishment. this is known as harboring criminals. by law, the pope is a felon, but we all know the US doesn’t have the balls to arrest him.**
…nor the balls to arrest the Secretary of Education for all the public school children who are still being molested.
** 3. the crusades…**
…the jihad.
** 4. the inquisition…**
…the gay agenda.
** 5. institutionalized anti-Semitism**
…mainstream media bias.
Next?
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SnakeMauler
Guest
Militant atheiest who’s friends with my friend (college age people) he also is in some college freethinking garbage and whatnot.
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kozlosap
Guest
Sounds to me like he’s pulling your chain to watch you freak. Just smile at him and know in your heart and mind that he is jealous of your commitment to our Lord!
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Joe_5859
Guest
Ah.
He brings up many different areas of discussion. I would recommend against getting drawn into a tit-for-tat type of exchange whereby you attempt the unwieldy task of taking on every single one of his objections all at once. That is an unsustainable approach. Very quickly the conversation will become more than either of you can really meaningfully engage in.
If you want to pursue a conversation with him, I would force him to pick one objection that most troubles him to start with. You can certainly address all of his points in time, but in order to give the conversation the attention it deserves, it is best to pick a focus. Be upfront with him that you may not have all of the answers at the tip of your tongue but that you are sincerely interested in responding honestly and civilly. And you can certainly come here to CAF for (name removed by moderator)ut on each topic.
Make sure you give him the opportunity to fully articulate his thoughts before you respond to them. Make sure you understand what he is saying. I think it helps greatly if you start by reformulating what he is saying and asking him if you are understanding his thoughts correctly. That lets him know that you are actually listening to him, which will make it more likely that he will actually listen to you.
Of course (and this is just my opinion based on my experience) most college age guys that fancy themselves “free thinkers” are probably not interested in legitimate, intelligent discourse. The guys that I knew like that in college were more interested in morally justifying their binge drinking.
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Big_Dummy
Guest
I usually ask the person if he is out to rattle cages or if he honestly wants answers. If he really wants answers then give him a list of books to get via interlibrary loan to read.
Acts 17:26
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Acts 17:26
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
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mcteague
Guest
What is it that makes you call this person a bigot?
Some of their views may be mistaken, or based on inactivate information. Some may be open to interpretation. Some may just be non Catholic arguments.
You may not like or agree with those views, but does that make this person a bigot
Are you a zealot because you hold Catholic views?
By the way, young people often tend to see things in black and white. They are a little one sided in there analysis. And also often have passionate, exaggerated views.
Ask yourself if any of his arguments is reasonable. That is could a reasonable person hold this view? You don’t have to agree with it. But separate the things intelligent people can disagree about from the other stuff.
For example, some variety of historical interpretation regarding the crusades is possible. And one could argue that teaching abstinence in 3rd world countries might contribute to the rise of aids. As I said, you don’t have to agree with those arguments. But they are not the crazed rantings of a lunatic
Some of their views may be mistaken, or based on inactivate information. Some may be open to interpretation. Some may just be non Catholic arguments.
You may not like or agree with those views, but does that make this person a bigot
Are you a zealot because you hold Catholic views?
By the way, young people often tend to see things in black and white. They are a little one sided in there analysis. And also often have passionate, exaggerated views.
Ask yourself if any of his arguments is reasonable. That is could a reasonable person hold this view? You don’t have to agree with it. But separate the things intelligent people can disagree about from the other stuff.
For example, some variety of historical interpretation regarding the crusades is possible. And one could argue that teaching abstinence in 3rd world countries might contribute to the rise of aids. As I said, you don’t have to agree with those arguments. But they are not the crazed rantings of a lunatic
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DianaCC
Guest
Joe, the Pick One strategy doesn’t work in real life because the Shotgun Attack is an end in itself. The glory of verbal domination is the goal; patient dialog is beside the point.
Remember Lynda Carter in that *Wonder Woman *tv show bouncing bullets off her bracelets? She could handle a revolver and even a machine gun - so long as they were rifles, not shotguns youtube.com/watch?v=WFtDOvU6c28#t=1m25s Because as fast as she was, she couldn’t put her wrists in more than one place at a time. And this guy knows it, although he’s shooting at a different Wonder Woman.
A better strategy in responding to the Shotgun Attack is to go on the offensive and expose his mentality for what it is. The easiest way to do this in face-to-face conversation is to cut him off in mid-rant and tell him every single other issue he is planning to bring up (a memorized list would come in handy), then dismiss all of them at once with a withering remark like, “Yeah, I got it off the same website”.
One of the finest examples of this technique is in the 1997 movie Good Will Hunting, the “Bar Scene”: youtube.com/watch?v=ymsHLkB8u3s#t=0m30s
Remember Lynda Carter in that *Wonder Woman *tv show bouncing bullets off her bracelets? She could handle a revolver and even a machine gun - so long as they were rifles, not shotguns youtube.com/watch?v=WFtDOvU6c28#t=1m25s Because as fast as she was, she couldn’t put her wrists in more than one place at a time. And this guy knows it, although he’s shooting at a different Wonder Woman.
A better strategy in responding to the Shotgun Attack is to go on the offensive and expose his mentality for what it is. The easiest way to do this in face-to-face conversation is to cut him off in mid-rant and tell him every single other issue he is planning to bring up (a memorized list would come in handy), then dismiss all of them at once with a withering remark like, “Yeah, I got it off the same website”.
One of the finest examples of this technique is in the 1997 movie Good Will Hunting, the “Bar Scene”: youtube.com/watch?v=ymsHLkB8u3s#t=0m30s
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danserr
Guest
Agreed, the simple fact that someone disagrees with us does not make them a bigot, but here I think there is some evidence the term bigot is fair. I think the term is appropriate if the person in question (OP’s acquaintance) holds certain opinions about Christianity with a certainty and a disdain that is all out of proportion to his understanding of those issues. He seems like the standard internet variety skeptic who has never bother to read the bible in context, never studied anything about the crusades beyond what he read about the history channel, and is simply looking to throw out a few slick questions in a child’s game of gotcha. I myself would be embarrassed to hold similarly ignorant views about another religion or belief system without getting a better understanding of that system.
So I agree, these are not the crazed rantings of a lunatic. They are the badly uninformed rantings of a college student (I would guess). Alone they would be fine, as long as they inspired the person in question to gain a better understanding of those issues, but when the person makes his ignorance public for the purposes of ridiculing Christianity, then I think he is in peril of irrationality.
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danserr
Guest
That is great if you can pull it off well. But I agree, the challenge here is that people using the shotgun attack are not usually looking for honest answers. My preference though, is to try to assume they really do want honest answers, give them those answers and hope they have the decency to be embarrassed at their previous ignorance.
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