How do I respond to this abortion discussion?

[LtPaint]

At school, I talk with my friends a lot about abortion. Most are Pro-Abortion, while I’m against it. I’m good at explaning to people that a fetus is a human, the fetus is alive, etc.

This girl gave this situation that her mother went through.

Her mother and her lived in South Africa, he mother was a single mother. Her mother got pregnant, and before she know she went to a bar. Her drink was spiked with drugs. A while latter she found out she was pregnant. She also, supposedly, found out that the child would be physical and metally retarded and when the baby was born, the only way it would survive is through surgery. She says her mother got the abortion because the surgery would mean the girl would have to leave school for three year(schooling cost money in South Africa) and it would essentially put the mother and the daughter into complete poverty. She says her mother did it in the better interest for her daughter.

I am not sure how to respond. I thought it sound selfish because the mother was afriad to sacrafice her lifestyle for a child and the surgery and hard times that would insue. I also thought it sounded like she was make the value of her and her child more important then the unborn child, even if the child would have difficulties.

But, I didn’t know how to respond because it had actually happened. Therefore, there is going to be emotion connected to the event.

What do I say?

 

[iamscifimike]

Perhaps to remain charitable you might remain silent, perhaps not.

You could ask if she’d rather have a sibling or education/modest living means. Tell her I’d rather have a sibling to love in poverty.

You could also say that if the child will die naturally why not give it a chance to live even briefly. If you can’t afford the surgery then you can’t. Let God have at least a chance to work a miracle.

 

[rwoehmke]

It is over and done and I am sure that many women who get abortions really don’t fully comprehend what they are doing. They are trying to muddle through life. That doesn’t mean its all OK. It means someone in this woman’s life exploited her and then left her rto deal with the fallout. Probably no one stepped up to offer her any alternatives either. Its real easy to point a finger and condemn, but many of us are guilty of doing nothing to help.

 

[puzzleannie]

At She says her mother got the abortion because the surgery would mean the girl would have to leave school for three year(schooling cost money in South Africa) and it would essentially put the mother and the daughter into complete poverty. She says her mother did it in the better interest for her daughter.

you could have pointed out that the mother did have other choices, namely adoption, but that even in the scenario predicted by doctors (who are not always right) a child born with multiple defects is still a gift from God, and that the woman rejected untold graces from God by refusing to bear the child, and no one will ever know the outcome. preface your remarks by reminding the group that no one has the right to judge or criticize another person’s actions, but that by using this as an example of how a person navigates such a difficult decision, you can demonstrate how a specific case demonstrates objective realities.and the objective reality is that no one has the right to deprive an unborn child of its God-given life, except God himself.

It would also be a kindness to mention that there is a place for women who have undergone abortion to find healing, Rachel’s Vineyard, and offer to help find their contact for anyone who is interested. be very careful to avoid sounding accusatory and condemning

 

[heathernoel]

Perhaps this would suffice…

Is a child with significant disabilities worth less than an able bodied child? Do you have the authority to make that judgement?

 

[mercygate]

It is important to separate the subjective from the objective matter. First establish the objective reality that abortion is killing a human being (as you did). Much of what was presented as “fact” in this scenario is speculation.

Next, I would not even discuss this case because the primary issue is not abortion, it is a catastrophic breakdown in the moral life of this mother.

Why is she a single mom? Divorce? Widowhood? Never married? And she gets pregnant? Isn’t this a big problem in itself? Is she even Catholic – not that the moral position would be different but she would not be under the obedience of the Church.

Why on earth is she going to bars and accepting drinks, even if she doesn’t know she is pregnant? How did she learn the drink was spiked?

My sniff test says there is something very fishy in this scenario as your friend tells it.

 

[CatholicSam]

Even in South Africa no parent is forced to raise their children. They are free to give them up for adoption or foster care. And as for not being able to pay the school fees, there is always homeschooling using primarily materials from the free public library. Not easy, but definitely doable with God’s help. That’s another thing–He never gives you more than you can handle with His help. This is something the secular, pro-abortion people don’t understand.

And finally, no one would force the mother to put the possibly deformed newborn through the costly surgery. She could have carried the baby to term and then evaluated the situation once the baby was born–would the surgery have a good chance of success and should the family sacrifice the money for this cause? Maybe the mother knew that once the baby was in her arms it would be harder for her to say no to the surgery.

Edit: If she carried the baby to term and then decided not to have the doctors operate on the baby, this would be an acceptable solution in the eyes of the Church (provided the surgery was very serious and costly). Of course an inexpensive, simple procedure that could save a life would not be as easily dismissed.

 

[kage_ar]

Express how tragic that the woman in question did not have the support of her family, friends or Church that would enable the child to live and be raised by caring people. Let her know that Catholic Charities exist all over the world.

 

[LtPaint]

I said things like their were alternatives and how the value of life doesn’t go down if a child has disorders.

I think she viewed her life and the life of her mother more important, though.

I just had problems putting the words together. I could have said that the action was selfish(as many abortions are) except it actually happened. The fact that there was defiently emotion attached made it hard discuss.

I do believe her mom has been giving her information that would make it look like it was the only possible action

Also, it is hard to discuss because people get passionate, which I find annoying when I’m just trying to have a discussion.

Response to CatholicSam: She claimed that homeschooling would have not been possible because of her mothers job.
This did make me suspsious because I was wondering why she was every at the bar in the first place if she was a single mother with obviously no way to look after her child. I do believe she was exagerating the story to make abortion look like it was the only option, which is never the case. People of the younger generation, which would be mine, seem to attach very little value to human life, whatever stage it is in.

 

[mercygate]

I said things like their were alternatives and how the value of life doesn’t go down if a child has disorders.

I think she viewed her life and the life of her mother more important, though.

I just had problems putting the words together. I could have said that the action was selfish(as many abortions are) except it actually happened. The fact that there was defiently emotion attached made it hard discuss.

I do believe her mom has been giving her information that would make it look like it was the only possible action

Also, it is hard to discuss because people get passionate, which I find annoying when I’m just trying to have a discussion.

Response to CatholicSam: She claimed that homeschooling would have not been possible because of her mothers job.
This did make me suspsious because I was wondering why she was every at the bar in the first place if she was a single mother with obviously no way to look after her child. I do believe she was exagerating the story to make abortion look like it was the only option, which is never the case. People of the younger generation, which would be mine, seem to attach very little value to human life, whatever stage it is in.

Your friend is dealing with the fact that her mother is capable of killing her own child. I understnd that children who learn that their mothers have had abortions often have a very hard time coming to terms with it.

 

[LtPaint]

So they try to find way to accept it and defend it?

 

[mercygate]

So they try to find way to accept it and defend it?

Yes. That is often the way people try to deal with things they know to be deeply wrong. Children are naturally disposed to love their mother. As you see, the problems in this woman’s life are clearly many. The child here is trying to rationalize a very painful circumstance.

 

[LtPaint]

Yes. That is often the way people try to deal with things they know to be deeply wrong. Children are naturally disposed to love their mother. As you see, the problems in this woman’s life are clearly many. The child here is trying to rationalize a very painful circumstance.

Is there anyway, bying showing lvoe and compassion of course, a way to show the person that the action was not a moral one??

 

[mercygate]

Is there anyway, bying showing lvoe and compassion of course, a way to show the person that the action was not a moral one??

I think the approach mentioned earlier (by you, I think) that the mother must have felt that there was no other option, otherwise she would not have killed the baby, is the best starting point.

I might even venture the phrase “killed the baby” to show that this is a horrible act. But I would not press anything. The kid already has her hands full with a mother like that. How long ago did the mom have this abortion? How old was your friend at the time?

When my DD was in high school, she overheard a student weeping to the guidance counselor that her mom came home at 5:00 a.m., drunk, collapsed on the bed, and the girl couldn’t wake her up. Manhattan. Park Avenue. Penthouse. Big time Catholic prep school. The suffering of these teens is unspeakable.

 

[LtPaint]

I think the approach mentioned earlier (by you, I think) that the mother must have felt that there was no other option, otherwise she would not have killed the baby, is the best starting point.

I might even venture the phrase “killed the baby” to show that this is a horrible act. But I would not press anything. The kid already has her hands full with a mother like that. How long ago did the mom have this abortion? How old was your friend at the time?

When my DD was in high school, she overheard a student weeping to the guidance counselor that her mom came home at 5:00 a.m., drunk, collapsed on the bed, and the girl couldn’t wake her up. Manhattan. Park Avenue. Penthouse. Big time Catholic prep school. The suffering of these teens is unspeakable.

I think she came to America from South Africa around the age of 11, not sure though. So it could have been anytime before that.

It’s just not her, but so many people I know. The value of the child is so low that it makes you wonder what kind of world we are living in.

The worst part is when I talk to my friends about it and when they relieze that they having no way to make a response, they start to make jokes, like an abortion discussion is something to laugh over. I have friends(who say they are Christians) who say they think abortion is completely wrong and goes against the most basic morals, but then say the woman has a chose to kill the child because it is her body.

The worst part is I don’t even know what will happen if abortion is made illegal. If abortion was made illegal right now, we would face the problem that will arise in the black market with illegal abortions, which there will be a huge amount of.

But that is off topic. I’m just so confused about what I’m suppose to do with this all. I have an intense desire to protect the unborn, but the ignorance of the population is not making it easy.

 

[mercygate]

I think she came to America from South Africa around the age of 11, not sure though. So it could have been anytime before that.

It’s just not her, but so many people I know. The value of the child is so low that it makes you wonder what kind of world we are living in.

The worst part is when I talk to my friends about it and when they relieze that they having no way to make a response, they start to make jokes, like an abortion discussion is something to laugh over. I have friends(who say they are Christians) who say they think abortion is completely wrong and goes against the most basic morals, but then say the woman has a chose to kill the child because it is her body.

The worst part is I don’t even know what will happen if abortion is made illegal. If abortion was made illegal right now, we would face the problem that will arise in the black market with illegal abortions, which there will be a huge amount of.

But that is off topic. I’m just so confused about what I’m suppose to do with this all. I have an intense desire to protect the unborn, but the ignorance of the population is not making it easy.

Can you left align your posts? I find centering so unsettling (just me!).

Your sense of the importance of this issue is a very great gift of God. But what you have in front of you is not “an abortion” but a girl who has a big load on her shoulders, of which her mother’s abortion is only one large source of pain.

Is your friend White, Black, or Colored? The appalling conditions circumstances of Blacks and Coloreds in South Africa, that may still exist for all I know, can scarcely be imagined by people in Europe and North America.

Rachel’s Vineyard deals with people – mothers, fathers, people like your friend – who are working through post-abortion problems. They hold weekend retreats. I just called to ask whether someone like your friend would be a candidate for such a retreat, and the person I spoke with said, “absolutely” and encouraged me to give you their phone number. Your friend can call just to talk to someone or to find a local weekend she might attend. (877-467-3463)

 

[LtPaint]

She is white.

I know she would never go for anything like that, simply because from when I’ve talked to her, she seems like she is so intent on that mindset. I do believe that she has been “feed” this stuff about abortion since a young age and like you stated early, the love she has for her mother is also a preventive factor.

 

[mercygate]

She is white.

I know she would never go for anything like that, simply because from when I’ve talked to her, she seems like she is so intent on that mindset. I do believe that she has been “feed” this stuff about abortion since a young age and like you stated early, the love she has for her mother is also a preventive factor.

You are a wise young lady. But since you are pretty much hamstrung by this girl’s position, and discussion is not likely to prove fruitful, the next time the subject comes up, you could give her the phone number and say to her: “A lot of women who have abortions – and the people who love them – sometimes have certain regrets afterwards.” Give her the web address and the phone number and just say: “Rachel’s Vineyard has helped a lot of people with that.”

Then leave her on her own. You don’t want to be cramming stuff down her throat but just giving her a tool. She may not follow up at all, or she may follow up years from now . . .

 

[ChristineML]

It’s just not her, but so many people I know. The value of the child is so low that it makes you wonder what kind of world we are living in.

The worst part is when I talk to my friends about it and when they relieze that they having no way to make a response, they start to make jokes, like an abortion discussion is something to laugh over. I have friends(who say they are Christians) who say they think abortion is completely wrong and goes against the most basic morals, but then say the woman has a chose to kill the child because it is her body.

The worst part is I don’t even know what will happen if abortion is made illegal. If abortion was made illegal right now, we would face the problem that will arise in the black market with illegal abortions, which there will be a huge amount of.

But that is off topic. I’m just so confused about what I’m suppose to do with this all. I have an intense desire to protect the unborn, but the ignorance of the population is not making it easy.

Two points I’d like to make:

(1) Yes, if abortion were to become illegal again, there would probably be some women getting illegal abortions, just like some women did back when abortions were still illegal. BUT most people are law-abiding citizens and will conform their actions to the requirements of the law. And since a law outlawing abortion will likely come from a societal consensus that abortion is killing a baby and that is wrong, society will have to provide alternatives to abortion, including emphasizing and supporting the choice for abstinence to reduce the number of crisis pregnancies to begin with.

(2) A quote from Mother Teresa: “God does not call us to be successful, only faithful.” The results of our efforts are up to Him. He must be so pleased at your efforts defending the unborn, even in uncomfortable discussions with classmates. May God bless you for your efforts! That’s how the pro-life movement will win, by leading one person at a time to a change of heart on this subject.

The ignorance and lack of caring of the population about abortion are sources of frustration to many others in the pro-life movement, but they still manage to soldier on and even form long-term strategic plans to end abortion on demand in our nation. Do read up on Joseph Scheidler’s Pro-Life Action League in Chicago
prolifeaction.org/
and Troy Newman’s Operation Rescue West in Wichita, Kansas.
operationrescue.org/

And specifically for young people born after the nationwide legalization of abortion in 1973, I also highly recommend Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust, not specifically Catholic, but evangelical Protestant, I believe.
survivors.la/
Perhaps you’d like to consider becoming a missionary for the unborn. This Survivors organization trains youth for either being activists back in their local communities or for Campus Life Tours: College students take a semester or year off from their studies to travel the country visiting colleges and high schools (where young people are most likely to be found in crisis pregnancies) educating fellow students about human development in the womb, the horrors of abortion, answering all the “pro-choice” arguments for abortion, etc. They may suffer the discomfort of being screamed at or called dirty names or even being illegally arrested for exercising their right to free speech on public property, but they also get the consolation of hearing about “saves:” women who were planning to abort their babies but didn’t, because one person was there at the right time to be God’s instrument for them. That makes all the pro-lifers’ efforts worthwhile. Maybe you feel a call to this kind of very effective pro-life action?

 

[LtPaint]

You are a wise young lady. But since you are pretty much hamstrung by this girl’s position, and discussion is not likely to prove fruitful, the next time the subject comes up, you could give her the phone number and say to her: “A lot of women who have abortions – and the people who love them – sometimes have certain regrets afterwards.” Give her the web address and the phone number and just say: “Rachel’s Vineyard has helped a lot of people with that.”

Then leave her on her own. You don’t want to be cramming stuff down her throat but just giving her a tool. She may not follow up at all, or she may follow up years from now . . .

Just got back from a vacation.
I am actually a young man, but I do like the compliments of being wise

I am actually not sure if I will see her anytime soon.
She was my friend’s girlfriend, but they just broke up.

If I see her I will continue the discussion, but I also am talking to other people at the moment and it has been much more successful without the emotional attachment. Recentely, with much patience, brought one of my friends into the Pro-Life side.

And I’ve continued my “work” and am succeding and being hated at the same time, but I must be patient and continue to love.

Thank you all for your comments