How do non-Catholics interpret 1 Cor 3:15?

  • Thread starter Thread starter bindybox
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

bindybox

Guest
How do non-Catholics interpret 1 Corinthians 3:15? It is understood to be stating purgatory, and that makes perfect sense. How else could someone wrestle a meaning out of that other than purgatory? I am interested because a Protestant acquaintance wishes to debate me on the existence of purgatory, and I wish to be well prepared.

1 Cor 3:15
  • If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.*
 
If he is an OSAS Baptist, then it is possible that he will never listen to you. They deny that 1 Cor 3:15 refers to purgatory, of course. Instead, they may say it is a sort of figurative description of the loss of one’s effectiveness in this life.

In any case, check out this long thread for some supporting information. As you will find, it ends up being all about what it meant when Jesus died for us, and what the Gospel is really all about.

Purgatory and 1 Corinthians 15:52
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=94928&page=1&pp=100

hurst
 
40.png
bindybox:
How do non-Catholics interpret 1 Corinthians 3:15? It is understood to be stating purgatory, and that makes perfect sense. How else could someone wrestle a meaning out of that other than purgatory? I am interested because a Protestant acquaintance wishes to debate me on the existence of purgatory, and I wish to be well prepared.

1 Cor 3:15
  • If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.*
www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
 
I would agree with those who hold that Paul is not at all talking about Purgatory at all in 1 Cor 3:15. I think for many of us who have grown up with the image of Purgatory being a place of purification, especially by “Fire” it is a natural and easy step to make the connection of this verse with Purgatory but this displays a lack of understanding of Paul’s letter taken in its entirety and could reflect something we Catholics often and justly criticize protestants of doing. That is taking a verse out of context and building a theological interpretation around it.

When studying Paul’s letter to the Corinthians as a whole, it becomes apparent Paul is addressing a specific crisisthe Church of Corinth is facing.

Paul had established the Church of Corinth based on the principles of his understanding of the Gospel message. We know from his other writings Paul has come into conflict with the teachings of other Christians epecially those who were followers of James. This created an ongoing tention within the Church.

This tention could be briefly described as an identity crisis of who we truely were in relationship to the old covenant which at its roots reflected a particular Christology.

The question was asked was Christ Jesus the fulfilment of the Old Testament Covenant and as such did not do away with the Law and therefore Christian were still bond by the Old Covenant and the Law (this was the teaching of James and the Church of Jerusalem) or was Christ Jesus’ paschal sacrifice and Resurrection something that superceed the Old Covenant and created a New Covenant and a New Israel not bound by the Old (this was Paul’s teachings)?

From his letter, we find that Paul having establish the Church of Corinth on the principle that we are a New Covenant people not bound by the Law of the Old Covenant, move on with his missionary activity. However, others had come to Corinth whose theological understanding was we were still bond by the Law and taught this openly and it seems condemned Paul and his theology. The Corinthians were a people who could be influnced more readily by bold and confident teachers and philosophers and many had given into those who preached a Christology and ecclecisology of Jame anf the Church of Jerusalem. All this was causing the Church of Corinth to suffer deep divisions, amoung other problems Paul had to address in a letter.

In 1 Cor 3:15, taken in the of the whole letter is refering to the test the community was experiencing in adhering to the teaching of Paul as oppose to James. Paul is trying to tell the Corinthians that they were being tested here and now but that he was confident that he was correct and if his followers would withstand the onslought of other teaching, in the end they would win out and remain true and pure to the Gospel message he (Paul) have given them.

This is the test and fire Paul is writing about. not purgatory and the afterlife.
 
40.png
TOME:
When studying Paul’s letter to the Corinthians as a whole, it becomes apparent Paul is addressing a specific crisisthe Church of Corinth is facing.
Based upon the first chapter of 1 Cor., the crisis seems to stem from factions created by human jealousy and pride. Where do you find that these factions are caused by differences in teaching?
40.png
TOME:
Paul had established the Church of Corinth based on the principles of his understanding of the Gospel message. We know from his other writings Paul has come into conflict with the teachings of other Christians epecially those who were followers of James. This created an ongoing tention within the Church.
This tention could be briefly described as an identity crisis of who we truely were in relationship to the old covenant which at its roots reflected a particular Christology.
Where in 1 Corinthians does is mention James or the followers of James? What are the ongoing tensions in the Church? What are these conflicting teachings?
40.png
TOME:
From his letter, we find that Paul having establish the Church of Corinth on the principle that we are a New Covenant people not bound by the Law of the Old Covenant, move on with his missionary activity. However, others had come to Corinth whose theological understanding was we were still bond by the Law and taught this openly and it seems condemned Paul and his theology. The Corinthians were a people who could be influnced more readily by bold and confident teachers and philosophers and many had given into those who preached a Christology and ecclecisology of Jame anf the Church of Jerusalem. All this was causing the Church of Corinth to suffer deep divisions, amoung other problems Paul had to address in a letter.
Where do you find James’ teachings about the covenants that are in conflict with Paul’s?

I am sorry, but I am having a hard time seeing the premises for your arguments.
 
I don’t see how the fire is representative of anything in this life, because it takes place after judgement, therefore after death. The logic of it is quite simple. After judgement, the judged goes to a place where they suffer loss as through fire, which can’t be Heaven because they wouldn’t suffer loss in Heaven. And this fire can’t be Hell, because the verse says that the person will be saved, and of course no one in Hell can be saved. If this doesn’t point to Purgatory, then what would the meaning of this actually be ?
 
Volzpca,
First I agree with you that when reading 1Cor it becomes clear that pride and jealousy are important causes of divisions within the Corinthian community however if you go beyond just 1 Cor you might, as I have, come to the conclusion that there were strong theological divisions active as well. Then again, your conclusion might be just the opposite with the possibility if not probrably you are correct and I am wrong.

In ! Cor Paul does mention James by name but in a different context from this thread, however, in his introduction he mentions Peter and here it is part of the introduction which is trying to articulate theological divisions.

We know from Acts that Peter was commissioned by the Church of Jerusalem to bring the Good News to jews outside of Judea. We also know from Acts that the head of the Church of Jerusalem was James. It was James who presided over the Council of Jerusalem, and although Peter was present it was James who issued the final devree on how to handle gentile convert to Christianity. Although this decree was liberal in its scope it was still rooted in the Law and was abbigious enough to be interperted either as a conservative decree and should be seen in light of the Law or as Paul interpreted this decree which lead to tention within the Church.

We also see James’ influence over Peter when the delegation from Jerusalem was sent to Antioch by Jame and the division this delegation cause amoung Christians of Jewish and pagan background and how James’ influenced Peter’s actions and how Paul opposed this.

Although Paul in his one travel to Jerusalem, after his conversion, met exclusively with Peter and James, we find in Paul’s letter to the Corinthian and in his other letters Paul creating a distance between himself and the other Apostles and the Church of Jerusalem when he defends his Apostolic credentials.

We know from Acts that the Church of Jerusalem with James as its leader continued to understand themselves as Jews who were bond by the Law.There are other sources outside scripture that attest to this and refers to James’ influence over the Church (especially the Church of Jerusalem) in this regards. One source is a contempory author of the Apostles - Flavius Josephus, and from Patristic times there is the writings of Hegesippus as quoted by Eusebius. From these these sources we find Jame’s theology faily clearly stated and from the letters of Paul we find Paul opposing them as evidenced by Paul’s continued attacks on the influence the Law should have over Christians. Remember Paul will go as far as even proclaiming that the Gentiles Christians were the true sons of Abraham.

I have kept away from James’ letter for two reasons. First, there is a lot of evidence that the letter of James was not written by James. Second, if James was the author, he was writing to a specific group of people about a particular crisis and as such does not give a complete picture of James’ theology (which is, in my opinion, why the letter of James concerning “Good Works” and Paul’s continued stress of “Faith” should be compared and not contrasted).

I acknowledge this is not clearly brought out in 1 Cor however I am of the thought that it is still relevant to this discussion.

One extra point, just to help clarify things sometimes I enter this forum as TOME others as Teme525. This is not to hide myself and I do try to make this clear from time to time - it’s actually the result of my impatience but that is another story.
 
TOME/Teme525
We know from Acts that Peter was commissioned by the Church of Jerusalem to bring the Good News to jews outside of Judea. We also know from Acts that the head of the Church of Jerusalem was James. It was James who presided over the Council of Jerusalem, and although Peter was present it was James who issued the final devree on how to handle gentile convert to Christianity. Although this decree was liberal in its scope it was still rooted in the Law and was abbigious enough to be interperted either as a conservative decree and should be seen in light of the Law or as Paul interpreted this decree which lead to tention within the Church.
Where does it say in Acts that Peter was commissions by the Church of Jerusalem?

The major issue for the Jerusalem Council was to determine whether or not Gentiles had to follow the law of Moses, particularly must they be circumcised (Acts 15:5-6). Peter was not merely “present”, but it is clear that he made the decision on circumcision (Acts 15:7-11). Peter was looked upon as the leader because it says in Acts 15:7a “after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them”, The act of rising denotes that the leader is ending the debate and is giving his decision.
Likewise, after Peter spoke Acts 12:12 “And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.” The silence indicates Peter’s decision is final, so there is no further debate on the matter. They then proceeded to other discussions with Barnabas and Paul. Finally, at the end of the meeting, James, as the presider (it is a benevolence to have the local leader as the meeting presider) summarizes what transpired and was decided upon at the council.

You will have to enlighten me as to where you find that Paul’s interpretation was such that it led to tension.
We also see James’ influence over Peter when the delegation from Jerusalem was sent to Antioch by Jame and the division this delegation cause amoung Christians of Jewish and pagan background and how James’ influenced Peter’s actions and how Paul opposed this.
I assume you are referring to Galatians 2, where, although Peter’s actions were precipitated by the visitors from James, the passage states Gal 2:12 “For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.” It does not say that he feared James but rather the “circumcision party”. I does not explicitly state what Peter’s fear was. I think if we look at the circumstances and the make up of Christians we can find a couple of possibilities for his fear. The early church did have much tension due to the fact that there were Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles and this differentiation was acute both geographically and in their cultures. The Apostles had to work at transitioning the Jews into the fullness of Christ, which included weaning them from their much of their upbringing in Jewish law and customs. They had to transition the Gentile from beliefs in many gods and pagan rituals. They had to bring the Jews to the understanding that 1) Christ was the fulfillment of God’s covenant and of OT prophecies but, at the same time, that Christ encompassed all nations not just the Jews; 2) the old law of Moses was, for the most part, given by God as a punishment to Israel for their disobedience and therefore undone by Christ. 3) the Jew’s belief that the Messiah would establish a physical kingdom of nations on earth was in error and that His kingdom on earth was established in a non-political Church and made on with the kingdom of heaven.
The point is, that to transition all Christians into one unified Church, the Apostles used different disciplines for the different cultures. Similar to today where the Church in different countries celebrates different Holy Day, they have different disciplines and celebrations for Lent, etc. The tension in the early church was not caused by different “teachings” but different disciplines to address the need of the different cultures. The fear was that when believers of the different disciplines would come together there would be animosity created. So, I think Peter’s fears had to do with the possible disruption by the “circumcision party” and that it could undo the strides made toward unifying the Gentiles and Jews.

Paul’s opposition of Peter was not related to opposing James’ influence but it was to Peter’s not personally acting upon his own teachings (Acts 11). He was not practicing what he preached. There was no difference in doctrine among the Apostles only in the disciplines and how they should be applied. Peter, the first Pope, like all popes, was infallible not impeccable.

…Continued in next post
 
TOME/TEME525

…continuance
Although Paul in his one travel to Jerusalem, after his conversion, met exclusively with Peter and James, we find in Paul’s letter to the Corinthian and in his other letters Paul creating a distance between himself and the other Apostles and the Church of Jerusalem when he defends his Apostolic credentials.
In 2 Corinthians 11, Paul is distancing himself from “false apostles” the superlative apostles who ridiculed Paul because he was not prosperous and free of illness as they were. Nowhere does it indicate that they were legitimate Apostles but quite the contrary.
We know from Acts that the Church of Jerusalem with James as its leader continued to understand themselves as Jews who were bond by the Law.There are other sources outside scripture that attest to this and refers to James’ influence over the Church (especially the Church of Jerusalem) in this regards. One source is a contempory author of the Apostles - Flavius Josephus, and from Patristic times there is the writings of Hegesippus as quoted by Eusebius. From these these sources we find Jame’s theology faily clearly stated and from the letters of Paul we find Paul opposing them as evidenced by Paul’s continued attacks on the influence the Law should have over Christians. Remember Paul will go as far as even proclaiming that the Gentiles Christians were the true sons of Abraham.
You will have to cite to me where in Acts that James teaches this being bound by the old law. Many of the Jewish born Christians believed this but it was not taught by James or any other apostle. As I said above James had to wean the people from this belief over time.

As far as other sources outside of scripture, they are great for substantiating historical facts that are in scripture but I would not put too much stock in them for giving us information about Christianity that is contrary to scripture. In particular, Josephus, who was a Jew, would have motivation to present a not-so-true picture of the Christians.

When Paul attacked the law, he was talking to Jews, the Judiazers, who believed the old law had to be retained in its entirety. Not a view taught by James.

The Gentiles were “included” as the sons of Abraham, they were not called “the” sons of Abraham. (Rom 9:8)
I have kept away from James’ letter for two reasons. First, there is a lot of evidence that the letter of James was not written by James. Second, if James was the author, he was writing to a specific group of people about a particular crisis and as such does not give a complete picture of James’ theology (which is, in my opinion, why the letter of James concerning “Good Works” and Paul’s continued stress of “Faith” should be compared and not contrasted).
It does not matter who scribed the scriptures, but what counts is that God is the author of all scripture. You are correct in saying to come to understanding of, not just James, but all scripture we must factor in the initial audience. As far as “Faith” and “Works” the writings do not have to be compared or contrasted, because as you say, points are stressed differently depending upon the audience. We compare and contrast different passages in scripture to help us to understand it, not to prove that one is right and one is wrong. While a passage may be aimed toward resolving a particular crisis, it is still the inspired word of God and, therefore inerrant, and cannot be discounted because we do not know who scribed it. So if Paul says we need faith, it must be true. If James says we need works, it must be true. If Peter says we need obedience, it also must be true. All of these things and more are necessary to be saved.
 
Volpca,
I apologize for delaying my response but time wouldn’t allow an earlier reply.

But reviewong my earlier points a couple of things came up that I must clarify.

First, I seem to personifying those who insisted on the need of Christians to follow the Jewish Law in the person of James. An in doing so it could easily be understood that I was questioning they and James sincerity of their beliefs, especially James.

Here, I would have to turn not only to Acts but to Josephus in regards to James’ theology and spirituality. From Acts during Paul’s last visit to Jerusalem it was James who insisted that Paul perform a ritual cleansing that would lead to Paul’s troubles when he was recognizined by Asian Jews on pilgrimage to Jerusalem. But going back to James, it can be deduced from his insistance the Paul perform this ritual James was very much a practicing Jew.

It is also acknowledge by Luke and confirmed by Paul’s writings (Galatians) that James was an important figure in the Jerusalem Community and in effect the leader of the Church of Jerusalem. Again, it was James who made the final announcement produced the letter on the Council’s findings. This in my opinion shows James’ role was far more than ceremorinal.

But this makes sense when considering the commission the Apostles received from Christ Jesus (MT 28: 16-20) and the fact James was not an Apostle. The Apostles role was to go out to the world to proclaim the Good News. This does not negate Peter’s role of leadership and influence over the Church of Jerusalem but it may help explain James’ leadership role.

Also, if we turn to Josephus and cut through the many irrevelant layers (some of which was clearly added to his writing by Christians years later) a couple of things stand out. But it should be remembered when Josephus was writing it was not about Christians per se but about the religious and political situation in Jerusalem around the time of the Jewish revolt and the destruction of the temple. Then using Josephus’ writings as a source we can deduce that James was the leader of the Church of Jerusalem. Also the Church of Jerusalem understood itself as the perfection of and not seperate from judaism. Again, this was attested to by Luke in Acts in his discription of the followers of Christ and their liturgical practices which was centered in Temple worship with the added practice of gathering for the “Breaking of the Bread”.

And I need to add, all sources, scriptural and non-scriptural, attest to the fact that James was a deeply spiritual person but his spirituality was rooted in his keeping the Mosaic Law which for him was brought to perfection in Christ.

However, from Acts, Josephus and the letters of Paul, I think it is clear there was an on going “discussion” on the nature of the Church and this discussion turned heated at times, usually with Paul in the middle of the discussion.

I was wrong when I said in Acts it was decided that Peter was to be the Apostle to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. This decision although made at the Council of Jerusalem was not found in Acts but is expressed in Paul’s letter to the Galatians chapter 2.
 
A point was brought up that in studying looking at other works of Paul in trying to explain my point about this thread’s question, the term’s “false Apostles” and Judaizers was used. I am glad this was brought up because it further illustrates my point that what we find in 1 Cor and through out Paul’s other letters the tention between those who held that Christians were obligized to keep the Law and Paul’s theology.

Throughout the New Testament there was one charge Paul had to constantly defend himself against. The charge was Paul never saw, meet nor heard the historical Jesus and the only ones who know the True Gospel Message and the nature of the Church were those who were instructed by Christ Himself and their disciples. That is the Twelve and those who made up the Church of Jerusalem with James as it head. We know from Acts and other non-scriptural sources that these Christians believed that Christ’s mission was to the Jews and in His Paschal Sacrifice the Law found its perfection not its termination. Their ecclesiology was that the Church was not a seperate entity from Judaism thus Christians were still bond to the Law.

When you think about it, the position of the members of the Church of Jerusalem carried a lot of weight, after all these member knew Jesus personally and there were taught by Christ Himself. But we find in Paul’s reaction to this charge the reason I stated that he distanced himself from the leaders of the Church and the Apostles. Paul claimed his message and theology was true because Paul had received his commission from Christ Jesus Himself and therefore was not subject to others, including Peter, James and John. And at the root of his Gospel message and Apostolic Activity was that Christianity was something that went beyond Judaism and the Law and was a totally new covenant in Christ’s death and resurrection and that alone. The false apostles of 2 Cor were those who were Judaizers who were using any means to discredit Paul even his infirmities. And it was from this tention that Paul was challenging his followers to trust him and his Gospel Message as opposed to others and the trials his followers would face in following his teachings would be the fires of purification he wrote about in 1 Cor 3:15.
 
40.png
bindybox:
How do non-Catholics interpret 1 Corinthians 3:15? It is understood to be stating purgatory, and that makes perfect sense. How else could someone wrestle a meaning out of that other than purgatory? I am interested because a Protestant acquaintance wishes to debate me on the existence of purgatory, and I wish to be well prepared.

1 Cor 3:15
  • If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.*
I will tell you coming from an Evangelical background, both Assemblies of God and Independent Baptist (polar opposites, by the way :rolleyes: ) that most of the time it is explained in this way: this verse is talking about the rewards (not salvation, but rewards for giving to God) that each believer receives in heaven for his works on earth. If the works done for the Lord were of a selfish motive, like the Pharisee who dropped the money in the poorbox when he knew a lot of people would notice so they would think highly of him,… then they will burn up; but if they were done out of love for the Lord with no interest in men’s admiration or self pride, they will survive the test of fire and the rewards will remain. If all rewards are burned in the fire, you will retain your salvation but have very few rewards to show for your earthly life to take into eternity.

So, they do not believe that your Soul is being tested, but your works.

This is how it was *always * explained when this passage was taught. There may be other Protestant views, but I can’t speak to them.

Hope this helps! 🙂
 
1 Cor 3:15
  • If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
As a former protestant I was blinded by this as well as each church I attended, we were so ingrained that there was no purgatory our answer to that verse is well the word purgatory is not mentioned there, or you know there is a lot of symbolic terms in the bible.

Which again is great, when we quoted Paul that was always literal even if we misunderstoon the message but when we quoted Jesus well that was symbolic like this is my flesh and this is my blood.*
 
Texan in DC said:
1 Cor 3:15
  • If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
As a former protestant I was blinded by this as well as each church I attended, we were so ingrained that there was no purgatory our answer to that verse is well the word purgatory is not mentioned there, or you know there is a lot of symbolic terms in the bible.

Which again is great, when we quoted Paul that was always literal even if we misunderstoon the message but when we quoted Jesus well that was symbolic like this is my flesh and this is my blood.*

I agree. There was never any consistancy in how scriptures were interpreted. This was a real spur for me, I could not get past my discomfort over this, especially after having read the Church Fathers dating back to the first, second and third centuries, and how they consistently interpreted scriptures, and they always were very Catholic sounding in doctrine. :eek: It was completely unnerving for me, and it came to this: I had to question whose interpretations I was then going to trust, people of my own era who changed their interpretations with what seemed like each generation, or the interpretations that stood the test of time.

The test of time won. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top