How Do We Explain This to Non-Catholics?

[Catholic_Johnny]

[Child abuse scandal cost US Catholic church $3 billion](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/Child abuse scandal cost US Catholic church $3 billion)

but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Matthew 18:6

I love the Church with my whole heart, but how can we even try to defend such wickedness? This appears to me as it was in the days of the Prophet Ezechiel when the priests were completely corrupt and openly worshipped the Cannanite fertility gods.

How much good could have been done with $3 billion, let alone, how much better would it have been if we would never have allowed those with homosexual tendencies into the seminaries?

Is the confidentiality of the confessional to blame for the cover up or is there another explanation? Faithful Catholics deserve to know.

cj

 

[TiggerS]

[Child abuse scandal cost US Catholic church $3 billion](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/Child abuse scandal cost US Catholic church $3 billion)

I love the Church with my whole heart, but how can we even try to defend such wickedness? This appears to me as it was in the days of the Prophet Ezechiel when the priests were completely corrupt and openly worshipped the Cannanite fertility gods.

How much good could have been done with $3 billion, let alone, how much better would it have been if we would never have allowed those with homosexual tendencies into the seminaries?

Is the confidentiality of the confessional to blame for the cover up or is there another explanation? Faithful Catholics deserve to know.

cj

Truth is that we cannot defend wickedness anywhere including in The Church - nor should we try. Criminal acts including if in The Church are criminal and need to see the light of day and the courts. I am not too sure (I do not know statistics) that priests with homosexual tendancies only were abusers and I do not think that the confidentiality of the confessional is to blame either - rather in some cases the privacy of the confessional may have been abused.

I do not know much about poedaphilia but I think it might be very wrong to place it on the doorstep of homosexuality only or if there is any proven, factual, direct link between homosexuality and homosexual tendancies and poedaphilia. I am completely ignorant on that score.

We do need to know the truth and doubtless the fact that the media do not intend to leave matters alone will assist in bringing the truth to light - even if some media is only interested in sensationalist reporting and may even be anti-Catholic.

The best we can hope for I think is that those who have been abused will somehow find healing, that those who have abused or covered up abuse will need to face court for criminal acts - and that The Church will put in place, given time, whatever is needed to ensure that no criminal or criminal act is protected by The Church no matter who the criminal may be nor for any reason whatsoever, not only in the interests of justice and the law of the land but in the interests of The Church Herself and keeping scandal and criminal acts from The Church in Her leadership certainly insofar as She is able. The Church in leadership may need to understand too that The Church may be legally liable in certain instances of crime by leadership.

To my mind, the shock and horror of it all is not what it has cost The Church in dollars, rather those lives that were abused by priests as children who are still now suffering and perhaps for life - well do you quote Matthew Ch18 V6.

As to evanglization. All the above stands to my mind because if we try to justify or rationalize all that has happened, we are not being true to Truth and God is Truth. It is a terrrible evil that has taken place in The Catholic Church for one. Faith needs to be about more than the fallible and faulted human beings who are in Church leadership and while scandal in The Church needs inspire us to ensure that the truth comes into the light, I don’t think it should shake Faith itself. The Gospel of Christ stands despite a terrible failure and appalling crimes of some of His apostles in our day. We need to be very very supportive of our priesthood at this point in history for I am very sure that despite the massive scale of this scandal worldwide even, there are far more good and dedicated, holy priests than there are the opposite.

TS

 

[Catholic_Johnny]

TiggerS,
Thanks for the reply - you make some very profound points here, especially about the Truth and the power of Truth to shed light in the darkness.

As far as the direct link between pedophelia and homosexuality, let me ask a simple question: is there a big scandal that is being uncovered about nuns who molest little girls - or even little boys for that matter? There is your answer.

Many homosexuals were themselves traumatized as children by homosexual predators.

The Church is reeling from this scandal, and especially the European Church. Believe it or not, something like 45% of all the world’s RC Priests live in Europe.

We cannot, should not, and dare not rationalize this wicked, criminal behavior. Anyone covering up, shuffling offenders around, and not applying serious penalties to these predators does so “to the least of these my brothers” - can you imagine?

In any event, we have no business preaching Catholicism, Churchianity, or anything other than Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The Gospel cannot sin nor beget sin, but the Holy Mother Church is a hospital for sinners - and preach the Great Physician we must. At the same time, we need to ponder very, very seriously our Lord’s admonition in Matthew 18:6.

cj

 

[Edwardjohn]

Truth is that we cannot defend wickedness anywhere including in The Church - nor should we try. Criminal acts including if in The Church are criminal and need to see the light of day and the courts. I am not too sure (I do not know statistics) that priests with homosexual tendancies only were abusers and I do not think that the confidentiality of the confessional is to blame either - rather in some cases the privacy of the confessional may have been abused.

I do not know much about poedaphilia but I think it might be very wrong to place it on the doorstep of homosexuality only or if there is any proven, factual, direct link between homosexuality and homosexual tendancies and poedaphilia. I am completely ignorant on that score.

We do need to know the truth and doubtless the fact that the media do not intend to leave matters alone will assist in bringing the truth to light - even if some media is only interested in sensationalist reporting and may even be anti-Catholic.

The best we can hope for I think is that those who have been abused will somehow find healing, that those who have abused or covered up abuse will need to face court for criminal acts - and that The Church will put in place, given time, whatever is needed to ensure that no criminal or criminal act is protected by The Church no matter who the criminal may be nor for any reason whatsoever, not only in the interests of justice and the law of the land but in the interests of The Church Herself and keeping scandal and criminal acts from The Church in Her leadership certainly insofar as She is able. The Church in leadership may need to understand too that The Church may be legally liable in certain instances of crime by leadership.

To my mind, the shock and horror of it all is not what it has cost The Church in dollars, rather those lives that were abused by priests as children who are still now suffering and perhaps for life - well do you quote Matthew Ch18 V6.

As to evanglization. All the above stands to my mind because if we try to justify or rationalize all that has happened, we are not being true to Truth and God is Truth. It is a terrrible evil that has taken place in The Catholic Church for one. Faith needs to be about more than the fallible and faulted human beings who are in Church leadership and while scandal in The Church needs inspire us to ensure that the truth comes into the light, I don’t think it should shake Faith itself. The Gospel of Christ stands despite a terrible failure and appalling crimes of some of His apostles in our day. We need to be very very supportive of our priesthood at this point in history for I am very sure that despite the massive scale of this scandal worldwide even, there are far more good and dedicated, holy priests than there are the opposite.

TS

I agree with you, and we absolutely need to pray for the healing of those who were and are being abused.
Honestly, If it weren’t for the mercy of the Lord, I’d be incarcerated or dead. We need, in my opinion, to be as merciful as the Lord has been with us and “forgive as God in Christ has forgiven us.”

 

[Catholic_Johnny]

I agree with you, and we absolutely need to pray for the healing of those who were and are being abused.
Honestly, If it weren’t for the mercy of the Lord, I’d be incarcerated or dead. We need, in my opinion, to be as merciful as the Lord has been with us and “forgive as God in Christ has forgiven us.”

True, dear brother. But recall our Blessed Lord’s words to the woman taken in adultery: “Neither do I condemn you. Now go and sin no more.”

 

[SunnaB16]

One of theTwelve was Judas; and look at what he did.

As members of the Church, we`re sinners to a greater or lesser degree. We have the Sacrament of Confession as proof of that.

As an entity, the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, and is sinless because the Holy Spirit is the Soul of the Mystical Body. As individuals, we`re like body cells: alive or dead or cancerous.

If a person is suffering from a malignant tumour, that doesn`t mean that the person himself is evil, although the tumour is. Same with the Church.

Were also under demonic attack whose ferocity is unmatched anywhere else. That doesnt excuse those sickening, stinking crimes; but you have to wonder about the (demonic) pressure inflicted on some of those involved, including the coverupperers.

 

[Catholic_Johnny]

May I vent for a moment?
I’ve come to the point where I don’t want to know what my priest believes about evolution, politics, homosexuality, or even the Second Vatican Council. The thought that my Priest, my pastor, my alter chrestus could do something so hideous and then hide it, and do it again to the Least of These is simply a massive stumbling block to faith. Hence, Mt 18:6 and of course, St. James’ admonition that teachers of the faith shall receive a stricter judgment.

I’m no better - I have broken all the commandments over and over and over. But we’ve arrived at the moment when a co-worker may snicker, “yeah, he’s Catholic - you know, the religion who’s ministers sexually abuse little boys…?”

God grant us a spirit of true repentance and holy hatred of sin!

 

[Edwardjohn]

True, dear brother. But recall our Blessed Lord’s words to the woman taken in adultery: “Neither do I condemn you. Now go and sin no more.”

I agree. What I said was meant to be the action of what I need to do. I know that we will all be held accountable. “It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of a living God,” and, I wouldn’t want to be in the perpetrators shoes. But, I have my own shoes to wear. “Lord, have mercy.”

 

[Edwardjohn]

May I vent for a moment?
I’ve come to the point where I don’t want to know what my priest believes about evolution, politics, homosexuality, or even the Second Vatican Council. The thought that my Priest, my pastor, my alter chrestus could do something so hideous and then hide it, and do it again to the Least of These is simply a massive stumbling block to faith. Hence, Mt 18:6 and of course, St. James’ admonition that teachers of the faith shall receive a stricter judgment.

I’m no better - I have broken all the commandments over and over and over. But we’ve arrived at the moment when a co-worker may snicker, “yeah, he’s Catholic - you know, the religion who’s ministers sexually abuse little boys…?”

God grant us a spirit of true repentance and holy hatred of sin!

Amen and AMEN!

 

[TAllan]

I wrestled with this one. My conclusion is that I would not condemn the armed forces for the acts of what equate to a handful of individuals. Nor would I call for the heads of the Pope for the unspeakable acts of a handful of priests.

 

[Edwardjohn]

One of theTwelve was Judas; and look at what he did.

As members of the Church, we`re sinners to a greater or lesser degree. We have the Sacrament of Confession as proof of that.

As an entity, the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, and is sinless because the Holy Spirit is the Soul of the Mystical Body. As individuals, we`re like body cells: alive or dead or cancerous.

If a person is suffering from a malignant tumour, that doesn`t mean that the person himself is evil, although the tumour is. Same with the Church.

Were also under demonic attack whose ferocity is unmatched anywhere else. That doesnt excuse those sickening, stinking crimes; but you have to wonder about the (demonic) pressure inflicted on some of those involved, including the coverupperers.

Well said.

 

[Spencerian]

It’s also important to note that such sins are not at all a problem exclusive to the Church. But we are, understandably, held to a higher standard.

A website has compiled news reports of many abuses among our Protestant and non-Christian brethren as well, which will give one pause to those who want to throw away the Church for some other supposedly less scandalous faith tradition.

 

[Catholic_Johnny]

It’s also important to note that such sins are not at all a problem exclusive to the Church. But we are, understandably, held to a higher standard.

Precisely. We are the new Israel. We have all the benefits, privileges, graces. We have the Eucharistic Lord in our midst. Our sins against so great a Light are all the more grievous and scandalous.

Remember what happened to Israel, dear brothers!

 

[TiggerS]

It’s also important to note that such sins are not at all a problem exclusive to the Church. But we are, understandably, held to a higher standard.

A website has compiled news reports of many abuses among our Protestant and non-Christian brethren as well, which will give one pause to those who want to throw away the Church for some other supposedly less scandalous faith tradition.

Good post in the issues you have raised, I thought, Spencerian. I agree with your first paragraph above while we need to remember that no matter how far this scandal grows outside of The Catholic Church by people who have abused and are not Catholics, it cannot one little iota excuse The Church. It cannot be used as a reason, excuse or rationalization to mitigate in any way what has taken place and is now taking place within The Church. It all MUST come into the full light of day in every way.

It is a truly horrendous matter that has happened within Catholicism and The Mystical Body of Christ. I was reading an article by a priest the other day (sadly I did not record it in my files) who stated that as long as one person, one person alone, is suffering because of what has happened it cannot be a concluded matter for The Church - and I do wholeheartedly agree with this.

The theology of God’s Permissive Will is a very important one catholicexchange.com/2007/04/10/83694/

The interested can find in The Catholic Catechism under the heading (scroll down to) “Providence and The Scandal of Evil” much food for thought here as well as insight into God’s Permissive Will:scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p4.htm#309 From this I am only quoting one paragraph:

" 311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:
*For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.*177 "

If people are going to have their Faith shaken or worse, throw it away all together, their understanding of what is now taking place in The Church is impoverished and this may well be due to poor instruction in the Faith - of what our Faith is all about and especially since evil and suffering are an ever present reality. Evil and suffering are always going to be a difficult matter to understand - but not if our Faith is invested fully in The Lord and we have a working understanding of theology and our Faith.

The good that just may come out of this horrendous situation in The Church is that Catholics may need to redefine their Faith and what it is all about - more about The Lord and His Love and Mercy for us, His Guidance of us, and less invested so totally in those who run the human institution of The Church who remain fallible and faulted, stumbling, human beings like the rest of us - outside of the Infallibility of The Holy Father when speaking of matters of Faith and Morals from the Chair of Peter. Does this cancel out one little bit, the horror of what has taken place or the suffering of those who have been abused and perhaps they will suffer their whole lives due to abuse experienced. Never and not one merest tiny iota.

TS

 

[TiggerS]

Precisely. We are the new Israel. We have all the benefits, privileges, graces. We have the Eucharistic Lord in our midst. Our sins against so great a Light are all the more grievous and scandalous.

Remember what happened to Israel, dear brothers!

Our sins against so great a Light are all the more grievous and scandalous.

Very very well said!

 

[LARSCOUT0311]

This post needs to be linked to any reoccuring posts dealing with the scandals. Its is deservedly a hot topic, but the responses have not been so clear as these as to why faith in the Catholic Church itself should not be shaken.

I love the Church and everything it stands for. There is evil everywhere, even in our midst. As said before this does not excuse the Church for what has happened but there are for more good priests than the few that have abused their roles. I know the priests at my parish I would wholeheartedly and without a second thought leave my one year old daughter in their care (if somehow it need arose).

It was only a few that gave all Catholics a black-eye, not just priests. This, though is an opportunity for the Catholic Church to show what we are made of and do whats needed to clean up our image and correct these issues. That was my rah rah! speech. Now I want to go out and tackle something…yeeesh!

 

[TiggerS]

This post needs to be linked to any reoccuring posts dealing with the scandals. Its is deservedly a hot topic, but the responses have not been so clear as these as to why faith in the Catholic Church itself should not be shaken.

Thank you for the response, LARSCOUT - If you come across any threads or posts that may be helpful in another thread, you can always link to them. I dont think there is any rule that prohibits it.

I love the Church and everything it stands for. There is evil everywhere, even in our midst. As said before this does not excuse the Church for what has happened but there are for more good priests than the few that have abused their roles. I know the priests at my parish I would wholeheartedly and without a second thought leave my one year old daughter in their care (if somehow it need arose).

For absolutely sure there are more good and devoted, holy, priests than there are the opposite and this is why we need to be totally supportive of our priesthood under these difficult circumstances which must be an agony for our good priests.
It is good, I think, that the media has jumped on this with a will and will not leave it alone and no matter their motivation to my mind. It is literally forcing heirarchy to deal with it all and in a manner that will be acceptable not only to Catholics but to the public generally. We can be totally assured that media generally is not going to leave the subject alone. There was an evil existing in The Church that needed to come into the full light of day and with all its absolute horror. And to my mind, if the media is ‘crucifying’ us at times falsely, then we can at least unite it to the Sufferings of Christ and be penitential about it. We have had a situation arise in The Church that does ask much penance and will do so for many a year yet - to my mind, for all time, perhaps even a contemplative order dedicated to this very purpose. This does not mean that we do not try to amend error or falsehood wherever it occurs - but it does mean that we do so without knee jerk emotional reactions, rather with soundly reasoned and Peaceful non emotional responses conveying the truth of matters.

It was only a few that gave all Catholics a black-eye, not just priests. This, though is an opportunity for the Catholic Church to show what we are made of and do whats needed to clean up our image and correct these issues. That was my rah rah! speech. Now I want to go out and tackle something…yeeesh!

I agree. It is indeed a real opportunity to show what we are made of and that our Faith is about far more than any sort of scandal in The Church which is not one bit to take away from the dreadful suffering of victims, which needs to be always paramount in our minds, hearts and prayer, as do the abusers for repentance.

and do whats needed to clean up our image and correct these issues.

I wholeheartedly agree and may the issue not rest from the headlines until this is fully effected in every way by every possible means.

TS

 

[TiggerS]

True, dear brother. But recall our Blessed Lord’s words to the woman taken in adultery: “Neither do I condemn you. Now go and sin no more.”

Well said.
General comments not necessarily connected to your post above: I do not think, however, that a misguided sense of mercy should in any way preclude poedaphilia coming before the law of the land - it is a heinous crime against children robbing them of their childhood. The moment I commit a crime, I am placing myself under the jurisdiction of the law of the land, of secular law and justice. As Catholics and citizens, I think, we have a duty to report serious crime to secular authority along with any involved in it - and no matter our position anywhere including in The Church. The moment I commit a crime, I need to realize this. That judgement by the law of the land, and the necessity that others report the crime no matter who they may be, is towards the fullest extent of the actual crime committed and intrinsic to it.
I do rather think, and I may be wrong indeed, that heirarchy in The Church did not protect poedaphiles so much from a sense of having Mercy upon them, as in a misguided effort to protect the reputation and public image of The Church. They acted very wrongly and now we have the result of it all. I think we really do need our heirachy to be very honest and open, transparent, about their motivations at the time of covering up these crimes and to not engage in further cover-ups in order to protect themselves or The Church in any way at all. The result could be further scandal down the line and perhaps even a worse situation.

Mercy means, to my mind, that we do not judge the abusers and consign them, in our minds and hearts, for eternity to Hell, and probably from anger even rage at their offences existing in our own minds and hearts. We cannot help what we feel, but we can have control over how we behave from those feelings. Anger even rage in the face of what has happened can be a very human and normal response emotionally - but if we are going to indulge in that anger and rage, then we too are guilty of moral failure and slaves to our emotions. Mercy means that we give abusers every opportunity to repent and to pray sincerely that they will do so, even support them in this quest (without denying the law of the land and secular justice re crime), and that God will indeed forgive. Mercy also means that we do not start counting dollars spent in an attempt to compensate and to allow victims to have effective counselling - this is a truly heinous crime that has been committed and by people who have been placed by heirarchy into positions of trust and responsibility who have then gone on to abuse little innocent children and under the cover of that position of trust and responsibility. When authority places a person in a position of trust and responsibility, that authority is stating that they find that person worthy and capable of same. When things go amiss (putting it mildly) both then must bear accountability and responsibility for the situation. That is a taken for granted with all authority everywhere. To my mind, the ‘buck stops’ along the exact same route as it was passed down. In other words, we as a Church through our heirarchy must take responsibility and accountability for what has happened.

Given time, this will pass as an issue (but not as a moral responsibility and accountability) for The Church however long it takes and whatever the result - but for probably most if not all victims what happened to them is a lifelong dreadful suffering and cost and perhaps for their families also.

TS