How do we not go to hell?

[Polaris]

I don’t think this is what our Lord teaches. If you look at St. Matthew Ch 19. It is clear that to be saved we need to follow the commandments. We can do more to be perfect, but don’t need perfection to be saved.

God Bless

St. Matthew, Ch. 19

Matthew 5:48

You, therefore must be Perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect.

Thats what I was refering to but I guess you can understand it only in loving your enemy. However once again how many of us perfectly love our enemies?

 

[Sina]

Can we be considered “perfect” in the state of grace?

 

[DebChris]

Can we be considered “perfect” in the state of grace?

I like the answer Joan of Arc gave her questioner at her trial when asked whether or not she was in a state of grace.
“I pray that I am in a state of grace, and if I am not I pray that God will put me in a state of grace.”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

From what I’ve been told by a priest whom I well respect.

“Full knowledge,” means full understanding. If a person can not reconcile that what they are doing, is in fact a mortal sin, because they lack the understanding of it, then they are not committing sin with full knowledge, and therefor their sin is venial, not mortal.

Also, I have read that full knowledge is when you have knowledge of the heart. You understand the offense against God, and do it anyway.

All that being said, its why examination of conscience on a daily basis is a must.

For me, I examine myself against the two commandments Jesus gave us, that is;

Love God with my whole heart, by whole strength my whole soul and to love my neighbor as myself.

Jim

 

[mattkubes]

My Anglican friend ( I have mentioned her in other threads ) who is very devout, said that she understands it that people go to heaven if they truly KNOW God, through Christ. If they don’t, or they refuse Him ( ok this could be done through mortal sin in our view )

That’s what it always comes back to for me…when I think I’ve committed a mortal sin, I always say to myself “well there’s no way I would reject God if I died right now” - but maybe a soul that is not in the state of grace is so incompatible with God that we would in fact choose to spend an eternity without Him if we were to die (regardless of what we think right now)…that’s what keeps me going back to confession. I try not to be scrupulous, just a careful - we’re dealing with eternity here

 

[Polaris]

I don’t think this is what our Lord teaches. If you look at St. Matthew Ch 19. It is clear that to be saved we need to follow the commandments. We can do more to be perfect, but don’t need perfection to be saved.

God Bless

St. Matthew, Ch. 19

16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 20 The young man saith to him: **All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me? **

21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. 22 And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions. 23 **Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. **25 And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?

26 And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible.

This is also teaching the need for perfection. First keeping the ten commandments, almost impossible to begin with, but the man said what else is wanting, or what else do i have to do to be saved. Jesus response was sell everything and follow me. He did not do this so he was lost. Jesus basically then basically said he was going to hell.

All things are possible through God but it depends on our free will to respond to that grace, very few people perfectly respond to Gods Grace. So hell is pretty much a gaurantee for a vast majority, which is basically the teaching of Christ in the bible and the early Church Fathers.

This is when I just put my hands up and hope in Mercy and I dont worry about it much.

 

[mattkubes]

This is when I just put my hands up and hope in Mercy and I dont worry about it much.

Polaris, I think your interpretation would make more sense if verse 26 was left out of that Gospel…lucky for us, it wasn’t

“And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible.”

Isn’t Jesus telling us here that, yes, it is easier to fit a camel through the eye of a needle…but that for God, even this is possible? I don’t know, this passage leaves me with the exact opposite sentiments that you’re expressing!

 

[DebChris]

Polaris, I think your interpretation would make more sense if verse 26 was left out of that Gospel…lucky for us, it wasn’t

“And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible.”

Isn’t Jesus telling us here that, yes, it is easier to fit a camel through the eye of a needle…but that for God, even this is possible? I don’t know, this passage leaves me with the exact opposite sentiments that you’re expressing!

The eye of a needle is a mountain passage. Everything the camel was carrying had to be removed before the camel would fit through. In the same way, if we ask, God will remove everything that is unessential for our salvation.

 

[Sina]

Even if the chances were that I was going to hell, I still believe in God and Jesus as the Saviour. I love God now. I am not giving up by any means.

 

[davidv]

Forgive me if I unknowingly speak against the Holy Spirit, but in sincere spiritual humility, I ask: Have we not recreated the burdens of the Law that Jesus freed us from?

I love you all.

No. Becasue Jesus did not free us from the moral law. The grace he made available for is sufficient to change our hearts so we no longer have a desire to break the law (thereby making us free from the law) For example, if you have no desire to kill anyone, your are free from the commandment “Do not kill”.

 

[bilop]

Matthew 5:48

You, therefore must be Perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect.

Thats what I was refering to but I guess you can understand it only in loving your enemy. However once again how many of us perfectly love our enemies?

In my translation (DR) it says

48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

which I take as a command. Jesus is telling us to be perfect, as the ideal, while he knows we won’t be. But, this is a guide for behavior, not a statement about salvation.

Clearly, not only the perfect will be saved. If so, then you have to say that the Church was wrong about many Saints, Augustine for one, who were far from perfect, but we know are saved.

God Bless

 

[bilop]

This is also teaching the need for perfection. First keeping the ten commandments, almost impossible to begin with, but the man said what else is wanting, or what else do i have to do to be saved. Jesus response was sell everything and follow me. He did not do this so he was lost. Jesus basically then basically said he was going to hell.

All things are possible through God but it depends on our free will to respond to that grace, very few people perfectly respond to Gods Grace. So hell is pretty much a gaurantee for a vast majority, which is basically the teaching of Christ in the bible and the early Church Fathers.

This is when I just put my hands up and hope in Mercy and I dont worry about it much.

I disagree. He was lost because he depaired of salavtion. He thought it wasn’t possible for him. But Jesus says it was possible, with God. The eye of the needle (as stated above) was a gate or passage, not a literal needle. A camel could pass, but with difficulty. Just like a rich man can get to heaven, with difficulty. Saint Louis was rich, and we are assured he is in Heaven.

God Bless

 

[Jesusstreet]

I understand that if we are in a state of mortal sin, we go to hell. We must confess our sins and receive absolution (especially on a mortal sin ).

I know Jesus died for our sins on the cross. I just cannot understand that if we do not go to confession on time when we have committed a mortal sin, we go to hell ( presumably, nobody knows for sure).

The thing is, EVERYONE is a sinner. Gazillions of us are in a state of mortal sin. Yes we try to stop sinning, yes I am sorry for my sins, but I am still a sinner. I fear I will die a sinner. Hopefully not in a state of mortal sin, but I am indeed a sinner.

I am just struggling with being less fearful of being in a state of mortal sin when I die. I know Jesus died for our sins. I know He gave us direction on not sinning, but we are humans, we sin?

For every person living and dead they await the day of judgement, when all shall stand before THE LORD and be judged each according to their works. If you are a pennitent person who’s kept the commandments, there still may be purgatory, but all in purgatory will go to HEAVEN.

Now it does depend on your unrepented sin, a person can repent and make an act of perfect contrition and be saved. This sounds like legalism, but in fact it is a state of the soul, of a person. If you are a person sorry for your sins, because you LOVE GOD whom you’ve offended the LORD is MERCIFUL. Many who live in ignorance will find MERCY as well. It is best to reconcile to GOD before you are on your death bed of course. And let us hope you didn’t do something horrible, like murder someone, or cheat on your wife with some other women for 20 years, and wait until you are on your death bed to repent, and then can find no priest to give you last rites . … or some such thing.

This amounts to keeping the commandments. Do this an dyou shall LIVE . … we are assuming you are a good practicing Catholic, therefore have confessed to be of COVENANT of JESUS’ BLOOD. . … if you are living in ignorance you can still be absolved of sin and saved, anyone whom the LORD wishes to save can be saved, and GOD has willed all souls to be saved . … Therefore every person everywhere should be keeping the commandments.

But in this case as you say a person not dying in a state of grace, but believing in CHRIST, not being a wicked, but a repentant soul, would probably end up in purgatory . … and judged on judgement day at the end of the days of the Earth . …

 

[Jesusstreet]

I disagree. He was lost because he depaired of salavtion. He thought it wasn’t possible for him. But Jesus says it was possible, with God. The eye of the needle (as stated above) was a gate or passage, not a literal needle. A camel could pass, but with difficulty. Just like a rich man can get to heaven, with difficulty. Saint Louis was rich, and we are assured he is in Heaven.

God Bless

Matthew 5:3 *Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The poor in spirit, can be rich or material wealth. Maybe they inherited it, but then spend their lives serving the poor, giving their mansions to the poor, and not caring for wealth in particular, but rather caring for the things of GOD. This is a perspective more known to GOD. Money can be a form of idol worship to the rich, but when money and things means less than helping and serving teh least of people this is being poor in spirit, because it means caring more for the things of GOD than of this world.

Saint Nicholas of Myra inherited a fortune and gave it all away to the needy.

Saint Lucy gave away her dowry to retain her virginity and was persecuted for it.

Saint Francis left a rich inheritance to be a poor friar.

There are many heroic deeds of the Saints who chose to be poor, because they are poor in spirit. Though many of them could have chosen to be wealthy in the world. To choose the pearl of great price is a heroic deed of Saints.

 

[Ignatius]

I understand that if we are in a state of mortal sin, we go to hell. We must confess our sins and receive absolution (especially on a mortal sin ).

Your understanding is incorrect. Here are a couple of corrections.

Correction #1 Only mortal sin. Eternal damnation only results from unrepented mortal sin.

Correction #2. If one is in danger of death and unable to receive the Sacrament of Confession, repentance and perfect contrition are the answer. Note, perfect contrition is contrition because of offending God, not because one fears eternal damnation.

Hope this helps.

Yours in Christ.