How do you handle people who think they know the liturgy?

[janeway529]

Yes, we have a few of those too. Luckily it’s a small Church.

Things got so bad for a while that Father chose not to do the optional shared Sign of Peace at all.

Oh, wait until you visit a predominantly African-American parish. I went once on a Sunday for the Gospel Mass and the Sign of Peace took almost 10 minutes. The archbishop was kind enough to wait, although I did see him look at his watch at one point.

 

[bben15]

Oh, wait until you visit a predominantly African-American parish. I went once on a Sunday for the Gospel Mass and the Sign of Peace took almost 10 minutes. The archbishop was kind enough to wait, although I did see him look at his watch at one point.

He is nicer than my pastor would have been. If it takes longer than 10 seconds, he will just start saying the Agnus Dei.

 

[Phemie]

He is nicer than my pastor would have been. If it takes longer than 10 seconds, he will just start saying the Agnus Dei.

If he’s back at the altar doing the Fraction then he should be saying the Agnus Dei. I have a problem when the choir starts singing it and Father is still shaking hands with the altar servers. They don’t get that the Agnus Dei accompanies the Fraction, it’s not a stand-alone chant.

 

[johnnyc176]

That’s what worries me. This same people have a concern that these things distract them from the Mass. I worry that the discord distracts us from Christ.

There really is no way to force people to stop holding hands during the Our Father. Like
poor Fr. Is going to go down and force everyone?

Things like the comment about the crucifix for the new church…it was a drawing…of course our new church will have a crucifix.,.they just could not wait and be patient about it.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I will try and have peace about it.

Another suggestion would be why not start a Faith Formation class on the Liturgy and invite those who may have a differing opinion than you to discuss it. Maybe invite Fr. to speak. It could be educational for all. Cardinal Burke recently wrote an article on why we should be concerned about liturgical abuse. It is getting better but we really should be on guard against it because of the damage it caused the Church.

zenit.org/en/articles/bringing-the-liturgy-back-to-the-real-vatican-ii

ZENIT: Some also say that to be concerned with liturgical law is being unduly legalistic, that it’s a stifling of the spirit. How should one respond to that? Why should we be concerned about liturgical law?

Cardinal Burke: Liturgical law disciplines us so that we have the freedom to worship God, otherwise we’re captured – we’re the victims or slaves either of our own individual ideas, relative ideas of this or that, or of the community or whatever else. But the liturgical law safeguards the objectivity of sacred worship and opens up that space within us, that freedom to offer worship to God as He desires, so we can be sure we’re not worshipping ourselves or, at the same time, as Aquinas says, some kind of falsification of divine worship

 

[Luz_Maria]

He is nicer than my pastor would have been. If it takes longer than 10 seconds, he will just start saying the Agnus Dei.

That would make no difference! They continue giving the sign of peace right through Communion.

 

[liturgyluver]

Why not quote the two opening verses from this wonderful hymn!:

Teach me, my God and King,
In all things Thee to see,
And what I do in anything
To do it as for Thee.

A man that looks on glass,
On it may stay his eye;
Or if he pleaseth, through it pass,
And then the heaven espy.

youtube.com/watch?v=lx8s3ReeUEA

 

[jimkhong]

Because the** actual instruction** reads:

Now, if the OP is talking about a small daily Mass when there are only a handful of people present, then I don’t think anyone would object. But if you are talking about a Sunday Mass where some people offer the Sign of Peace to those next to, in front, behind** and then** go across the aisle to greet more people, that would be going against the instruction. The latter example is much more likely to promote grumbling from purists than the former.

Surely, this must depend on the situation rather than a outright judgement of whether it complies with the rules based on a supeficial account of the scenario. What if the kid is sitting with someone else and wants to give the sign of peace to his parents sitting two aisles away?

And, what is ‘nearest’ anyway? What about side aisles where the next person is someone you know well and within two arms length?

In any case, have you noticed bishops going around giving each other the kiss of peace during Papal masses? Or that when there is a large celebration with many priests concelebrating/in attendance, the exchange of the sign of peace among the priests/bishops finishes much later than the congregation’s with priests/bishops wandering all over the sanctuary reaching out to as many brother priests as they can reach?

Before you say, “But …”, wouldn’t that prove that it depends on the situation: that in some scenarios some actions are permitted, nay even desirable, but in other scenarios, the same action could discouraged or even prohibited. Good liturgy is about bring as many people within the gathering as is possible to a closer communion with God and with each other, not a slavish reproduction of every single rule in the rule book. I believe something the Lord said to the Jews could be relevant here.

 

[jimkhong]

Another suggestion would be why not start a Faith Formation class on the Liturgy and invite those who may have a differing opinion than you to discuss it. Maybe invite Fr. to speak. It could be educational for all. Cardinal Burke recently wrote an article on why we should be concerned about liturgical abuse. It is getting better but we really should be on guard against it because of the damage it caused the Church.

zenit.org/en/articles/bringing-the-liturgy-back-to-the-real-vatican-ii

I share your recommendation for more formation so that people can come to an informed decision of why the rules were written the way it was; and in what scenario each rule is applicable according to the intention it was written.

Still, I find it easy to lose hope trying to deal with the little Napoleans we have, especially in some parishes without a resident priest or catechist. I know of one parish that has to abandon the Liturgy of the Word for children because a Liturgical Council member wants everything to go like clockwork and will lock the door if the children don’t return from their Liturgy of the Word at their assigned time (and I mean minute here). As they say, bureacracy is the refuge of the ignorant.

I think Annabelle Marie (nice name) is on the right track here: to respond with love and patience. I hope I have a little of her patience with some of the ‘liturgical experts’ we have.

 

[27lw]

I think the reality is this: the priest sets the tone and allows or dis-allows what he wants to. If he is favor of holding hands, crossing the aisle, etc. he will allow it, and maybe even encourage it. If a priest doesn’t like the extended sign of peace, he will instruct the music director to start the Agnus Dei, and people will cut it short (for the most part).

We had a priest for the past 6 years who was very conservative (only male altar servers, conservative old-school sacred music, short sign of peace, no holding hands), and then we got a new priest recently who is the opposite. So I feel like the parish has liturgical whiplash. I almost feel like the bishop should appoint priests who are similar in tone (if possible), then you won’t have this much angst when there is a drastic liturgical style change with a new priest.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

In any case, have you noticed bishops going around giving each other the kiss of peace during Papal masses? Or that when there is a large celebration with many priests concelebrating/in attendance, the exchange of the sign of peace among the priests/bishops finishes much later than the congregation’s with priests/bishops wandering all over the sanctuary reaching out to as many brother priests as they can reach?

Funny. Our parish tends to be quiet for the Sign of Peace - no crossing aisles, sometimes even not much turning around to the pew behind. A few Sundays ago we had 6 altar boys, 2 deacons, and 2 priests on the altar - it almost took them longer to give the sign of peace to each other than the congregation! It looked a bit like the handshake after a game with the two “teams” (altar boys vs clergy) lined up.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I think the reality is this: the priest sets the tone and allows or dis-allows what he wants to. If he is favor of holding hands, crossing the aisle, etc. he will allow it, and maybe even encourage it. If a priest doesn’t like the extended sign of peace, he will instruct the music director to start the Agnus Dei, and people will cut it short (for the most part).

We had a priest for the past 6 years who was very conservative (only male altar servers, conservative old-school sacred music, short sign of peace, no holding hands), and then we got a new priest recently who is the opposite. So I feel like the parish has liturgical whiplash. I almost feel like the bishop should appoint priests who are similar in tone (if possible), then you won’t have this much angst when there is a drastic liturgical style change with a new priest.

A priest can set a tone…and discourage…and talk about why it’s problematic to cross aisles and such…but you know he can’t force it…

The problem is that I’ve worked in Catholics Can Come Home for several years and I see how a cross word from a priest or telling people it’s “forbidden” to do something as innocent as that has people leave the Church for years. And this priest I know feels that weighs heavily on him and he is responsible for it…so he talks about it and educates. But it’s just like the Catholic Church as a whole…the church invites…it does not dictate.

Maybe that’s part of my problem…I know this priest is a good priest and I appreciate how he paces the Mass and how caring he is and reverent he is. That’s why I get upset to hear criticisms that almost become like little liturgical hitlers when they do not know all the facts or as much as they think they do. And I truly like these people and I know they are trying to do right but I just worry that they don’t listen…and create strife that Christ never intended.

And I’m not talking about huge abuses here…which I would have a problem with…but I would probably talk to the priest about it first.

Actually the parish here was much more liberal before this priest came…but he’s not new here…having been here for several years. He’ s the one who brought perpetual adoration, benediction, and a few other things that have been much more of a move towards the traditional.