How do you know that the bible is both Inspired and the Inerrant Word of God?

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What are your thoughts here…particularly asking non-Catholics?

Thank you,

Pork
 
Porknpie said:
What are your thoughts here…particularly asking non-Catholics?

Thank you,

Pork
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Dear Pork–I don’t know and no one else knows. There are people with claims, people with theories and people with faith but none of the writers of the NT saw Jesus or heard him speak but inspired people are a dime a dozen. Even George W Bush says he talks with God. None of this means, by the way, that I don’t believe. I do. However, what I believe is a lot simpler than what churches and theologians teach and as I get older, God’s word for me, gets simpler.
chan26
 
Everyone was present and witnessed when the Torah was given.
Writings of the Prophets that are fullfilled.
The Psalms were written straight from the heart, spontaneously, and they’re so elaborated in speech and style that people study them all day long.
There’s more but I have to run for now…
 
QUOTE=504Katrin;10712052.
The Psalms were written straight from the heart, spontaneously, and they’re so elaborated in speech and style that people study them all day long.

Hmmm? Probably most posts on this site are written straight from the heart and then read and studied “all day long” even all night long.
chan26
 
Chan26 said:
Dear Pork–I don’t know and no one else knows. There are people with claims, people with theories and people with faith but none of the writers of the NT saw Jesus or heard him speak but inspired people are a dime a dozen. Even George W Bush says he talks with God. None of this means, by the way, that I don’t believe. I do. However, what I believe is a lot simpler than what churches and theologians teach and as I get older, God’s word for me, gets simpler.
chan26
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Actually, Mark and John (gospels), Peter and james (apistoles) were his own disciples so they were there and listen and witnessed Jesus
 
shouniaziad said:
Actually, Mark and John (gospels), Peter and james (apistoles) were his own disciples so they were there and listen and witnessed Jesus
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Also, St. Matthew was an apostle. St. Paul both saw, heard, and was knocked off his horse by Jesus. St. Jude is probably Jude the brother of the Lord – he certainly knew his cousin personally. That leaves only St. Luke and the author of the Letter to the Hebrews who didn’t see and hear Jesus; and in the latter case, Catholic Encyclopedia says that it may well have been based on ideas of St. Paul, if not actually written by him. (Also the letters of John, if those are not actually written by St. John the Apostle.)
 
TheBear said:
Also, St. Matthew was an apostle. St. Paul both saw, heard, and was knocked off his horse by Jesus.
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Just to be accurate (and granted overly picky:p) there was no mention of a horse nor was St. Paul (still called Saul then) riding anything. The horse was only depicted by an artist (Caravaggio) in that famous painting.

MJ
 
shouniaziad said:
Actually, Mark and John (gospels), Peter and james (apistoles) were his own disciples so they were there and listen and witnessed Jesus
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I am not disagreeing with your post but, Actually, Is there any document that the church claims is written in the hand of John or Mark?
chan 26
 
TheBear said:
Also, St. Matthew was an apostle. St. Paul both saw, heard, and was knocked off his horse by Jesus. St. Jude is probably Jude the brother of the Lord – he certainly knew his cousin personally. That leaves only St. Luke and the author of the Letter to the Hebrews who didn’t see and hear Jesus; and in the latter case, Catholic Encyclopedia says that it may well have been based on ideas of St. Paul, if not actually written by him. (Also the letters of John, if those are not actually written by St. John the Apostle.)
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This is my previous response, do you know of any document that purports to have been written by Matthew or Jude. As for Paul, he claims to have had a vision but he never met Jesus. In addition most scholars agree much of the writing claimed to have been his, are forgeries. By the use of that word, forgeries, I’m not suggesting that any of the actual writers of sacred documents had anything but the best intentions.
chan26
 
There are several problems here. First Pork asked about the Bible - ie both Old and New Testaments. Second Pork asked if the Bible is inspired, thirdly is it inerrant, and finally if it is the Word of God. We have been given a hugely complex question to which each of us may have an attempted answer, to which the Vatican certainly has answers, and to which each of those who has been ordained will attempt to give a clear and ‘honest’ answer.

How old is the Bible? Perhaps 5,000 years old beginning to end. Can any book that old pass through millennia without intended or unintended change? Were those scholars, including the apostles, who wrote down what they understood as pure belief correct in their perceptions? Were they truly inspired, and how were those who selected the chapters of the Bible at the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century sure their inspiration was parallel to those earlier ones? ‘Inerrant’ has been the cause of dispute for millennia, whatever the dictat of the religious - Jewish or Christian. And finally we are left with the Word of God.

We can ask such questions, but is it possible to answer them? I think not. Is it possible to know the answers to any of them? I think not. And that is what faith is: believing without knowing intellectually. That is what God demands from us. And as Pope Benedict XVI wrote before his elevation, making conjectures about the stature and nature of God so we can ‘know’ demeans and denigrates the person of God, the universal and infinite the ‘I Am’.
 
Chan26 said:
I am not disagreeing with your post but, Actually, Is there any document that the church claims is written in the hand of John or Mark?
chan 26
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Paul heard him speak. According to the gospels or at least books of the Christian bible, I don’t remember where though, it is written that he said to him why do you prosecute me.
 
cwmb said:
There are several problems here.

“]1”]Were those scholars, including the apostles, who wrote down what they understood as pure belief correct in their perceptions?

. And as Pope Benedict XVI wrote before his elevation, making conjectures about the stature and nature of God so we can ‘know’ demeans and denigrates the person of God, the universal and infinite the ‘I Am’.
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First Pork asked about the Bible - ie both Old and New Testaments. Second Pork asked if the Bible is inspired, thirdly is it inerrant, and finally if it is the Word of God. We have been given a hugely complex question to which each of us may have an attempted answer, to which the Vatican certainly has answers, and to which each of those who has been ordained will attempt to give a clear and ‘honest’ answer.

How old is the Bible? Perhaps 5,000 years old beginning to end. Can any book that old pass through millennia without intended or unintended change?

I* don’t believe there is any evidence that Mark, Matthew and Luke, wrote anything down. Unless they took a crash course sometime, they didn’t have the skills.

Perhaps I am thick here, but it doesn’t seem to me that asking what grade of belief should be applied to the NT demeans or denigrates the person of God. For me, searching for meaning in all things including what has gone before us, is a critical part of forming a well founded conscience. Otherwise, we simply delegate the job to someone else.
chan26*
 
504Katrin said:
Paul heard him speak. According to the gospels or at least books of the Christian bible, I don’t remember where though, it is written that he said to him why do you prosecute me.
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Hello, I know less than you, but wasn’t that a vision that Paul claims he had? And I seem to recall the word was, “persecute.” But either one is probably correct. By the way, Was there ever a second vision where Jesus said, "Thank you, Saul’? I wonder why not if there wasn’t?
chan26
 
Chan26 said:
Hello, I know less than you, but wasn’t that a vision that Paul claims he had? And I seem to recall the word was, “persecute.” But either one is probably correct. By the way, Was there ever a second vision where Jesus said, "Thank you, Saul’? I wonder why not if there wasn’t?
chan26
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Off the top of your head, was there ever a situation where Jesus said thank you to any person?
 
504Katrin said:
Off the top of your head, was there ever a situation where Jesus said thank you to any person?
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As a matter of fact, i think His words to the thief on the cross could be considered a"thank you +" and the same for the Centurian who said, "Just say it Lord. My house isn’t good enough for you to enter, And then there’s the tax collector in the temple who could only say, I am not worthy. In many cases, Jesus’ praise was more than an empty thank you but it contained all that is in a “thank you.”

However, I like your perspective and you make me think, off the top of my head I haven’t heard of Jesus appearing and asking any of the monsters that roam the world, monsters worse than Paul, why they do it.
chan26.
 
** * don’t believe there is any evidence that Mark, Matthew and Luke, wrote anything down. Unless they took a crash course sometime, they didn’t have the skills.*

Based on what do you think that Matthew and Luke had no skill? In one of the blogs on this website, an apologist explains how it is common to think that people 2000 years ago were 2000 times dumper than us today. This is false.

Just because people of that era were fishermen, it does not follow that they were not educated (such as the case for John)

As for Matthew and Luke, there is no refute to their inteligiance and education since they were a tax collector and a physician respectively. I cannot remember what Mark’s profession was though.**
 
  • don’t believe there is any evidence that Mark, Matthew and Luke, wrote anything down. Unless they took a crash course sometime, they didn’t have the skills.
Perhaps I am thick here, but it doesn’t seem to me that asking what grade of belief should be applied to the NT demeans or denigrates the person of God. For me, searching for meaning in all things including what has gone before us, is a critical part of forming a well founded conscience. Otherwise, we simply delegate the job to someone else.
chan26*

Certainly Luke, who was a physician, had the skills and evidence shows he used them. Wrt the denigration of the person of God, I’m not sure what you mean by ‘grade of belief’. I believe; I don’t believe; I half or quarter believe?

Cardinal Ratzinger, in 1993, strongly proposed that trying to critically analyse the ‘I Am’, demeans God. He had evidence, like you and me; he built his argument on evidence, as you and I wish to do. And yes, I agree absolutely with you that it is not only advisable to search for meaning - in this case of the Bible, New and Old Testaments - but it is unconscionable not to do so to our best ability. In the end however, it is in faith that we stand before God. Just a note, I find that trying to comprehend ‘Ein Sof’ puts everything else into perspective. Thanks for your comments.
 
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