How do you rate Plato?

[Charlemagne_III]

On a scale of 1-10, how do you rate Plato as a philosopher? Why?

What is the aspect of Plato’s writing or thought that you like most?

What is the aspect of Plato’s writing or thought that you like least?

If you had to choose, which would you read again: Plato or Aristotle? Why?

If you had to recommend one or the other to a young person, which would you recommend: Plato or Aristotle? Why?

Please comment on any or all of the above, or raise any other question you think pertinent.

Thank you.

 

[Nihilist]

On a scale of 1-10, how do you rate Plato as a philosopher? Why?

What is the aspect of Plato’s writing or thought that you like most?

What is the aspect of Plato’s writing or thought that you like least?

If you had to choose, which would you read again: Plato or Aristotle? Why?

If you had to recommend one or the other to a young person, which would you recommend: Plato or Aristotle? Why?

Please comment on any or all of the above, or raise any other question you think pertinent.

Thank you.

Obvious, Plato is perhaps the greatest philosopher of all time- but his style of writing is primitive and dull, and likely to strike any modern reader as highly artificial. Also, his ideas would almost certainly strike the modern reader as artificial, childish, and full of reifications (even if they don’t know what reifications are).

Both Plato and Aristotle are pretty dry reading. But, I would recommend starting with Plato’s Phaedo- it is short, and relevant (insofar as the soul, life and death are always relevant to everyone). In fact, it is the only one of Plato’s works I have read for pleasure and spiritual benefits- as opposed to just academic purposes. The ‘Apology’ is tolerable as reading. Aristotle is, let’s face it, boring to read. Unless you are really wanting to study him seriously, just read a summary of Aristotle’s thought, and be done with it. But, his Ethics would probably be the writing most likely to engage the reader.

A much more accessible introduction to ancient philosophy would be Marcus Aurelius’ “Meditations” or Epictetus’ “Golden Sayings”. Both are short, snappy, and really engage the problems of life- suffering, happiness, the purpose of life, etc. Maybe these works can lead into an appreciation of the writings of Plato and Aristotle. Cicero’s ‘Tusculan Disputations’ is also quite pleasant reading- but probably would bore 95% of the population solid. But it is incomparable less boring the Aristotle. Reading Aristotle is about as interesting as reading a phone book, in a language you don’t understand.

Another thing I would recommend to the new comer to Classical philosophy is Diogenes Laeteres’ “Live and Opinions of the Eminent Philosophers”- he sums up the views of the Greek philosophers, and also gives amusing and interesting anecdotes about their lives.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Obvious, Plato is perhaps the greatest philosopher of all time- but his style of writing is primitive and dull, and likely to strike any modern reader as highly artificial. Also, his ideas would almost certainly strike the modern reader as artificial, childish, and full of reifications (even if they don’t know what reifications are).

Both Plato and Aristotle are pretty dry reading. But, I would recommend starting with Plato’s Phaedo- it is short, and relevant (insofar as the soul, life and death are always relevant to everyone). In fact, it is the only one of Plato’s works I have read for pleasure and spiritual benefits- as opposed to just academic purposes. The ‘Apology’ is tolerable as reading. Aristotle is, let’s face it, boring to read. Unless you are really wanting to study him seriously, just read a summary of Aristotle’s thought, and be done with it. But, his Ethics would probably be the writing most likely to engage the reader.

A much more accessible introduction to ancient philosophy would be Marcus Aurelius’ “Meditations” or Epictetus’ “Golden Sayings”. Both are short, snappy, and really engage the problems of life- suffering, happiness, the purpose of life, etc. Maybe these works can lead into an appreciation of the writings of Plato and Aristotle. Cicero’s ‘Tusculan Disputations’ is also quite pleasant reading- but probably would bore 95% of the population solid. But it is incomparable less boring the Aristotle. Reading Aristotle is about as interesting as reading a phone book, in a language you don’t understand.

Another thing I would recommend to the new comer to Classical philosophy is Diogenes Laeteres’ “Live and Opinions of the Eminent Philosophers”- he sums up the views of the Greek philosophers, and also gives amusing and interesting anecdotes about their lives.

O.K. Harsh judgment of Plato, but you sympathize evidently with Thomas Jefferson, who said in a letter to John Adams:

“I amused myself [recently] with reading Plato’s Republic, I am wrong, however, in calling it amusement. For it was the heaviest task-work I ever went through. I had occasionally before taken up some of his other works, but scarcely ever had patience to get through a whole dialogue. While wading through the whimsies, the puerilities, and unintelligible jargon of this work, I laid it down often to ask myself how it could have been that the world should have so long consented to give reputation to such nonsense as this.”

And apparently you are well read in the classics!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Understandably, not many Christians read Plato, and when they do they are disappointed, largely because he challenges us to think, and to doubt, rather than to learn the comfort of ready-made truths and tradition.

But Augustine and Aquinas found many things of interest in Plato’s work, even if we modern philosophers have lost interest.

I think the great power of Plato’s thought lies not in the truths he sought to reveal (because some of his conclusions are downright false) but in the method by which he sought to reveal them. He taught that a healthy skepticism will serve us well by forcing us to search for good reasons why we believe what we believe. It’s one of the reasons Socrates was executed byt the citizens of Athens. He taught the young men of Athens to question the values of their fathers. Their fathers didn’t much like that.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

By the way, it was the leaders of the democratic party of Athens that pushed for the conviction of Socrates. He apparently had spoken out brazenly against the dangers of Athenian democracy, and so the democrats let him have it good and hard, thus proving the dangers of democracy … at last so far as philosophers were concerned.

The caveat, of course, is that Athenian democracy had not evolved to a place that Jeffersonian democracy would argue; namely the place of an elected government that was voted on by all the people, but that all the people could not participate in except by their elected representatives. Athenian democracy was direct. All the laws were passed by all the citizens who showed up to vote. This is how Socrates was convicted at his trial. His enemies made sure the democrats were there in full force to convict him. There were about 500 jurors who showed up, and they all voted. Socrates was only convicted by a slight majority. But, given the opportunity to defend himself and explain why he should not be executed, he arrogantly defied the jury to sentence him to death, and so they did.

He was eighty at the time. Perhaps he was tired of living. But his death became the occasion of starting out Plato on his own career of writing dialogues about Socrates.
Perhaps the most important of these is The Republic, in which Socrates lays out once again, from the grave as it were, the case against Athenian democracy.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I think Plato was the most important philosopher of all time, and one of the wisest.

And certainly one of the most entertaining. I have no idea what Nihilist is complaining about. Plato is very subtle and requires the reader’s whole attention, but his prose is excellent.

I can’t say as much for some of his translators. Ugh!

Read it in Greek!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I think Plato was the most important philosopher of all time, and one of the wisest.

Is there any particular wisdom of Plato that impresses you most?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Is there any particular wisdom of Plato that impresses you most?

Plato is the first person that I know of who considered learning a process of conversion that involves a painful decision to leave a selfish and shallow way of life behind. The cave image is a dramatic representation of that process.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Plato is the first person that I know of who considered learning a process of conversion that involves a painful decision to leave a selfish and shallow way of life behind. The cave image is a dramatic representation of that process.

Prodigal Son, for those who are interested, is referring to the dialogue by Plato called Republic. The Myth of the Cave episode is one of the most colorful passages in Plato, in that he uses the metaphor of the cave to illustrate the journey of the soul from darkness into light.

 

[Rhubarb]

I enjoyed the Apology, and Euthyphro was interesting.

I think Plato’s impact on philosophy, and through philosophy, nearly every discipline is important - even if it just was for the education of Aristotle. Even if his ideas aren’t particularly compelling, Plato as a foundational springboard. I would almost always recommend Aristotle over Plato though, except for people who are philosophy nerds like me. I think in Aristotle one can see more familiar and intuitive ideas.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I would almost always recommend Aristotle over Plato though, except for people who are philosophy nerds like me. I think in Aristotle one can see more familiar and intuitive ideas.

Except when Aristotle is talking science, I like reading Aristotle. Even though he laid the foundations of scientific thinking in many respects, he was far from being a superior scientist. But most science was too primitive in his day to appeal to us today.

His work in logic is particularly amazing for its day. His writings on politics and ethics are very astute. There are long stretches of Aristotle that make for very dull reading, whereas that is hardly ever so in Plato, who is more of a dramatist of ideas through the dialogues of Socrates. Plato admired Aristotle for his genius, perhaps (or likely) thinking Aristotle’s depth eclipsed his own.

But Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle made quite a chain of great human reasoning.