How do you reconcile free will with predestination?

[Counterpoint]

Free will and predestination are incompatible with each other by definition:

free will : the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God

predestinate : destined, fated, or determined beforehand

(source: Merriam-Webster)

The apostle Paul clearly teaches predestination.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” Ephesians 1:3-11

How do you reconcile free will with predestination?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Free will and predestination are incompatible with each other by definition:

The apostle Paul clearly teaches predestination.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” Ephesians 1:3-11

How do you reconcile free will with predestination?

Hey Counterpoint, I have a great idea. Why don’t you just tell us what anti-Catholic apologetic text you are using so we will know how many more months of this Pergatory we have to indure?

Linus2nd

 

[Richca]

Free will and predestination are incompatible with each other by definition:

The apostle Paul clearly teaches predestination.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” Ephesians 1:3-11

How do you reconcile free will with predestination?

Free will and predestination are not incompatible with each other by definition. The CCC#600 says simply "“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination’, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace…”

 

[Counterpoint]

Hey Counterpoint, I have a great idea. Why don’t you just tell us what anti-Catholic apologetic text you are using so we will know how many more months of this Pergatory we have to indure?

I’m employing two texts - the Bible and Merriam-Webster.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Free will and predestination are incompatible with each other by definition:

The apostle Paul clearly teaches predestination.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” Ephesians 1:3-11

How do you reconcile free will with predestination?

“,the Catholic dogma of predestination keeps the golden mean, because it regards eternal happiness primarily as the work of God and His grace, but secondarily as the fruit and reward of the meritorious actions of the predestined. The process of predestination consists of the following five steps: (a) the first grace of vocation, especially faith as the beginning, foundation, and root of justification; (b) a number of additional, actual graces for the successful accomplishment of justification; (c) justification itself as the beginning of the state of grace and love; (d) final perseverance or at least the grace of a happy death; (e) lastly, the admission to eternal bliss. If it is a truth of Revelation that there are many who, following this path, seek and find their eternal salvation with infallible certainty, then the existence of Divine predestination is proved (cf. Matthew 25:34; Revelation 20:15). St. Paul says quite explicitly (Romans 8:28 sq.): “we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the first born amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Cf. Ephesians 1:4-11) Besides the eternal “foreknowledge” and foreordaining, the Apostle here mentions the various steps of predestination: “vocation”, “justification”, and “glorification”. This belief has been faithfully preserved by Tradition through all the centuries, especially since the time of Augustine…”

This is from newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

It is a long article and should be read carefully.

Linus2nd

 

[Counterpoint]

Free will and predestination are not incompatible with each other by definition. The CCC#600 says simply "“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination’, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace…”

Paul says that “[God] hath chosen us in [Christ] before the foundation of the world” Ephesians 1:4

 

[Counterpoint]

“,the Catholic dogma of predestination keeps the golden mean, because it regards eternal happiness primarily as the work of God and His grace, but secondarily as the fruit and reward of the meritorious actions of the predestined. The process of predestination consists of the following five steps: (a) the first grace of vocation, especially faith as the beginning, foundation, and root of justification; (b) a number of additional, actual graces for the successful accomplishment of justification; (c) justification itself as the beginning of the state of grace and love; (d) final perseverance or at least the grace of a happy death; (e) lastly, the admission to eternal bliss. If it is a truth of Revelation that there are many who, following this path, seek and find their eternal salvation with infallible certainty, then the existence of Divine predestination is proved (cf. Matthew 25:34; Revelation 20:15). St. Paul says quite explicitly (Romans 8:28 sq.): “we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the first born amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Cf. Ephesians 1:4-11) Besides the eternal “foreknowledge” and foreordaining, the Apostle here mentions the various steps of predestination: “vocation”, “justification”, and “glorification”. This belief has been faithfully preserved by Tradition through all the centuries, especially since the time of Augustine…”

That doesn’t explain anything.

 

[CatholicSoxFan]

I’m a Molinist. So I’d say that God knew that if I was put in the circumstances that I was out in, I would accept Christ, before His creative decree, and when He decreed to create this world, He created the circumstances which I was in such that I would accept Christ. Notice how in the Rom 8 passage you cited, the first link in the golden chain is foreknowledge.

 

[Nacho45]

How do you reconcile free will with predestination?

That’s easy. Catholics are not Calvinists. There is nothing to reconcile.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

That doesn’t explain anything.

I don’t think anything a Catholic would say would explain anything to you. So why do you persist?

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I’m employing two texts - the Bible and Merriam-Webster.

So you interpret the Bible for yourself. Interesting. And how do you know you are interpreting correctly? Perhaps we should elect you Pope? But first you would have to become a Catholic.

Linus2nd

 

[CatholicSoxFan]

Another one of Molina’s doctrines which I think is very useful is his doctrine of concurrence in respect to free creatures. Basically, it’s the idea that God acts with the free creature and the creature’s in order to act. It explains a lot of things like God hardening Pharaoh’s heart; Pharaoh freely willed to harden his heart, and God acted with Pharaoh according to Pharaoh’s will to harden Pharaoh’s heart; even though God does not positively will that Pharaoh’s heart is hardened, He still allows Pharaoh to do so by acting with Pharaoh because 1) He wants Pharaoh to have genuine free will, and 2) He knows that it will achieve His providential plan for the universe.

 

[CatholicSoxFan]

So you interpret the Bible for yourself. Interesting. And how do non-Catholics know they are interpreting correctly? Perhaps we should elect you Pope? But first you would have to become a Catholic.

Linus2nd

Even an exegete that isn’t a Catholic and whose interpretation isn’t guided by the Church (which, to anybody who might not know this reading this, is what we mean by “private interpretation”), will be able to see the big fat “foreknew” in the Rom 8 passage he cited.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

This one’s simple, in fact, I’ve always thought it to be one of the easier problems to overcome.

Simply put, you’re thinking far too linearly. To us, time is a line, a series of reactions preceded by actions. We believe that the knowledge of an outcome affects the action that caused it, this is because we can only think in a line.

Remove the line, and the whole idea of predestination becomes a non-issue. Time is a structure inherent to the physical reality, otherwise we would be incapable of measuring it (science and our ability to quantify being limited to things which exist in the physical reality). Seeing as how God exists outside of the physical reality, he exists outside of the influence of what we call time. To God, the past, present and future are one.

As a result, the term predestination takes on a new quality, specifically that it is not an assertive decision made by God, but rather the result of his omnipotence (and ability to see beyond time). An action is “predestined” only insofar as we chose it. Since we exist in the linear constraint of time, we are incapable of seeing the results of an action until the action has occurred; so to us, affect flows from cause. To someone unbound by time, cause and affect occur simultaneously. The reason God knows where we will be going (the reality that you are calling predestination) is that he is capable of seeing the sum total of the choices we make in our lives. That God can see this does not mean that he chose it for us, it simply means that he can see beyond the limits of linear time (a quality that is absolutely necessary in an omnipotent God).

Hope this helps your understanding. God Bless^^

Continuation

1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the holy ones who are [in Ephesus]* faithful in Christ Jesus:a

2
grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.b

3

• Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,c who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens,*

4
as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him.d In love

5
he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will,e

6
for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved.f

: (unformatted, straight from the USCCB’s site)

To specifically address Ephesians 1:4 -

God’s choosing of someone does not affect the fact that the someone still has to accept Him. He also chose Adam and Eve to be out first parents, and we see how that worked out. God’s will, while being ultimately triumphant, still requires our cooperation to affect our lives. (Shown most pointedly in the fact that even Christ had to chose to submit himself to the Father’s will “My Father,* if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will.” Mat 26:39)

 

[cmodrmac]

lets look at Judas as an example of the above conundrum-he freely betrayed Christ-or was he really free to do so? - given that with no Crucifixion there would be no Resurrection and without the Resurection no Christain faith-perhaps his betrayal was not necessary as the romans or the Jews or someone else would have identified him-yet Christ commented on one who would betray Him before he betrayed Him

so Judas’s path was plotted out before he was born and if he had free will he could have deviated from this path but of course God knew that he would not-(not influencing his decision but ofcourse knowing the outcome)

It is enough to make one a Unitarian

 

[CatholicSoxFan]

This one’s simple, in fact, I’ve always thought it to be one of the easier problems to overcome.

Simply put, you’re thinking far too linearly. To us, time is a line, a series of reactions preceded by actions. We believe that the knowledge of an outcome affects the action that caused it, this is because we can only think in a line.

Remove the line, and the whole idea of predestination becomes a non-issue. Time is a structure inherent to the physical reality, otherwise we would be incapable of measuring it (science and our ability to quantify being limited to things which exist in the physical reality). Seeing as how God exists outside of the physical reality, he exists outside of the influence of what we call time. To God, the past, present and future are one.

As a result, the term predestination takes on a new quality, specifically that it is not an assertive decision made by God, but rather the result of his omnipotence (and ability to see beyond time). An action is “predestined” only insofar as we chose it. Since we exist in the linear constraint of time, we are incapable of seeing the results of an action until the action has occurred; so to us, affect flows from cause. To someone unbound by time, cause and affect occur simultaneously. The reason God knows where we will be going (the reality that you are calling predestination) is that he is capable of seeing the sum total of the choices we make in our lives. That God can see this does not mean that he chose it for us, it simply means that he can see beyond the limits of linear time (a quality that is absolutely necessary in an omnipotent God).

Hope this helps your understanding. God Bless^^

I think an interesting view to hold here is that there can be a “hypertime”, or a time with multiple dimensions, where God is (and, being omnipresent, He would be infinitely dimensional in time), and where perhaps our souls are, whereas the physical world is just in a linear time. This would explain something like omniscience vs. free will, but it could also explain things like retro causality in QM.

 

[CrossofChrist]

I’m a Molinist.

Ever thought of improving to Congruism?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I think an interesting view to hold here is that there can be a “hypertime”, or a time with multiple dimensions, where God is (and, being omnipresent, He would be infinitely dimensional in time), and where perhaps our souls are, whereas the physical world is just in a linear time. This would explain something like omniscience vs. free will, but it could also explain things like retro causality in QM.

The problem with this is that it subjects God to time, even if it is time across multiple planes. This limits God to operating within the physical reality, which is impossible, because he created the physical reality. No matter what name you give it (another universe, another dimension, multiverse, whatever), it is still something that exists physically, and would therefore act as a limiting constraint on God’s omnipotence (since all things physical are subject to the flow of time, no matter what direction that flow may take).

I’m pretty sure the explanation I gave explains it quite handily without the need to introduce additional planes of physical reality.

As for retrocausality, while it’s a fun theory to think about, there’s pretty much no evidence, mathematical or otherwise, to suggest that it has actually occurred… if you could call it occurring… I’m not sure what you would call that… unoccuring… or for that matter that it’s even possible.

I apologize if you post again, I won’t be able to respond till tomorrow. Night all.

 

[CatholicSoxFan]

The problem with this is that it subjects God to time, even if it is time across multiple planes. This limits God to operating within the physical reality, which is impossible, because he created the physical reality. No matter what name you give it (another universe, another dimension, multiverse, whatever), it is still something that exists physically, and would therefore act as a limiting constraint on God’s omnipotence (since all things physical are subject to the flow of time, no matter what direction that flow may take).

I’m pretty sure the explanation I gave explains it quite handily without the need to introduce additional planes of physical reality.

As for retrocausality, while it’s a fun theory to think about, there’s pretty much no evidence, mathematical or otherwise, to suggest that it has actually occurred… if you could call it occurring… I’m not sure what you would call that… unoccuring… or for that matter that it’s even possible.

I apologize if you post again, I won’t be able to respond till tomorrow. Night all.

Well I think Craig is onto something re God being temporal. God is timeless without the universe (or logically prior to the creation of the universe, if you prefer), and temporal in infinute dimensions since the creation of the universe.

I don’t want this thread to be hijacked though, so I think we should make another thread on this if we want to talk about it.

 

[Counterpoint]

I’m a Molinist. So I’d say that God knew that if I was put in the circumstances that I was out in, I would accept Christ, before His creative decree, and when He decreed to create this world, He created the circumstances which I was in such that I would accept Christ. Notice how in the Rom 8 passage you cited, the first link in the golden chain is foreknowledge.

If your choice was completely predictable beforehand, then it was completely determinate.