How does Catholic meditation work, (not prayers.)

[YinYangMom]

Kevin Walker:

… the Catholic Church should develop its own meditative technique just as the Buddhist have done for their religion.

Hi Kevin,

Gosh, I can feel the fire of inspiration driving you to nail down this concept because it seems you are on the verge of developing or discovering something which you’d like to shar in order to help fellow Catholics.

Here is my hesitation with the idea:

You say the church should develop its own meditative technique…

but the church already stated it does not find the need to develop its own because there are so many others out there which can be used to achieve the ultimate goal of effective prayer. It basically says we are allowed to use meditation to facilitate our praying…it even encourages it in certain areas, as you pointed out…but the focus is always on whatever makes our praying the best that it can be as it cautions us from losing sight of that goal by the techniques themselves.

So if the Church, having studied all the different religions and techniques which exist in the world, have reached the conclusion She does not need to develop its own form of meditation to teach to Her followers, why do you feel it ‘should’ be done?

I imagine your paper or book would be well read and of great benefit to others like yourself who find meditation so beneficial, so on a personal level I applaud your research and your drive, but on a spiritual level I worry a bit that you are distracted from what really matters in your Catholic faith, and through your book, others may be led astray. I am confident this is not your intent at all because your entire motivation seems to be tied to developing something the Church would approve/sanction. I would hope, then, that whenever you complete your project you submit it to the Vatican for Her blessing/approval - whatever it can officially do to endorse your work - before sending it to print, because I certainly could be wrong about my concerns.

When that day comes, please remember to drop me a line because I’m certain my husband would be one of the first in line to buy the book, probably through the Catholic Answers website, too!

YYM

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Rooter:

The book was written about 1907 long before anyone had ever heard of eastern meditation. Also if you’re worried the book might not be Catholic enough, the letter in the front is from St Pius X, one of the most anti-modernist popes ever.

Thanks! I haven’t found the book in any of the Boston area public libraries or in second hand book stores. But I did find it on amazon.com and several reviews on the internet. I am really steeping myself in reading and analyzing at the moment.

"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." Sherlock Holmes

 

[Kevin_Walker]

YinYangMom:

You say the church should develop its own meditative technique…

Yes. Based on the number of Christian young people who have gravitated to Eastern meditation techniques, sometime for the wrong reasons, It suddenly occured to me during a Church workshop when the Priest told us to ‘meditate over this’, that a Catholic method of meditation should exist somewhere that is not prayer.

but the church already stated it does not find the need to develop its own because there are so many others out there which can be used to achieve the ultimate goal of effective prayer. It basically says we are allowed to use meditation to facilitate our praying…it even encourages it in certain areas, as you pointed out…but the focus is always on whatever makes our praying the best that it can be as it cautions us from losing sight of that goal by the techniques themselves.

To be brutally honest, I find the Catholic research on the technique of meditation to be weak at best. I cannot myself use the terms prayer and meditation interchangably. As I pray daily, I am incapable of doing any sort of meditation without breaking my praying concentration. So I believe they are two separate concepts.

So if the Church, having studied all the different religions and techniques which exist in the world, have reached the conclusion She does not need to develop its own form of meditation to teach to Her followers, why do you feel it ‘should’ be done?

Because I do not believe the Catholic Church has studied ALL the different meditation techniques in the world, and I do not believe that those foreign religious meditative techniques are compatible with Catholicism.

I imagine your paper or book would be well read and of great benefit to others like yourself who find meditation so beneficial, so on a personal level I applaud your research and your drive, but on a spiritual level I worry a bit that you are distracted from what really matters in your Catholic faith,

Blind obedience to authority is not part of my Catholic faith, even a marine can question orders. I was greatly offended when I read that Galileo had a good idea but backed down under the threat of torture from the Catholic Church. Galileo proved to be correct, but a disappointing figure since he did not stick to his guns.

 

[Fizendell]

Kevin:

I really admire your determination in this area. I hope you find what you are searching for and if not, find the reasons why.

In the meantime, a book was suggested in another thread that I think may help you. It’s called “Introduction to the Devout Life” by Francis de Sales.

I picked it up at the Catholic bookstore the other evening and last night had a very hard time putting it down. I read through the first segment and thumbed ahead a bit as it isn’t necessarily something you read through - but go back and use again and again.

There is a segment that talks about meditation, about how to put yourself in the presence of God and be focused in your prayers and devotions. Again - I haven’t read it completely, just noticed it last night and did not see it suggested in this thread already. I will be reading more this weekend and perhaps by Monday I could give you a better idea.

I also wanted to mention that in the introduction of this book, the author gives a bit of background as to how this book came to be and it specifically notes that a devout life is desired by those who must live in the world from day to day and while we ‘worldly’ people think devotion can only be done in the seclusion of the consecrated life, we are wrong. We can be devout, but it looks like it takes a lot more than just thinking about it.

Hope I didn’t get off track - and again - let us know what you find!

=)
Fiz

 

[Augustine]

To be brutally honest, I find the Catholic research on the technique of meditation to be weak at best.
So you think that you could do a better job than St. Thomas in India?
Blind obedience to authority is not part of my Catholic faith, even a marine can question orders.
Do you mean to imply that if a marine can question a general’s orders we can question the Holy Spirit’s? Wait, wasn’t like this that the fall began?
I was greatly offended when I read that Galileo had a good idea but backed down under the threat of torture from the Catholic Church. Galileo proved to be correct, but a disappointing figure since he did not stick to his guns.
So you liked Galileo’s idea that the Sun was the center of the universe and his insistance that it became a Catholic teaching, a faith which never cared about having any Cosmology?

I’m afraid that your willingness to submit your work to the Church is out of pride, not out of humility, as you seek her approval, not her decision.

I hate to tell you this, my brother in Christ, but I fear that you’re treading a mine field set up by the enemy…

May God keep you from the enemy’s traps.

 

[YinYangMom]

Kevin Walker:

To be brutally honest, I find the Catholic research on the technique of meditation to be weak at best. I cannot myself use the terms prayer and meditation interchangably. As I pray daily, I am incapable of doing any sort of meditation without breaking my praying concentration. So I believe they are two separate concepts.

But wouldn’t that be a limitation on your part, rather than of the church? Why should the Church accommodate your inability to meditate/pray when meditation isn’t a required practice (necessary for salvation)?

 

[Kevin_Walker]

YinYangMom:

But wouldn’t that be a limitation on your part, rather than of the church? Why should the Church accommodate your inability to meditate/pray when meditation isn’t a required practice (necessary for salvation)?

Thank you for this very good question. I am in the process of providing a good answer. Will be back.

 

[brabble]

Isn’t it a form of meditation to ponder these posts and perhaps think about our own posts?

Joy at Easter!

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Augustine:

So you liked Galileo’s idea that the Sun was the center of the universe and his insistance that it became a Catholic teaching, a faith which never cared about having any Cosmology?

No. I love the idea that Galileo scientifically dispproved the Copernican theory that the Earth was the center of the solar system and am very sorry that the Church forced him to recant his findings under the threat of torture, and disappointed in Galileo for not defying the Church especially when he knew he was provably right.

The Galileo saga is one I use to criticize scientists for their lack of integrity and show the atheists that the Catholic Church is not afraid to admit and correct its mistakes. Most people do not realize that the Catholic Church has an astronomical observatory and has a reasoned tolerance of evolution.

Thanks to the Galileo controversey, the Catholic Church is not pig-headed to new ideas.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Augustine:

Yet another ANALOGY: When I play chess, I pray for a victory, I concentrate during the game, and I meditate over the strategy. *

My turn to use analogies: approaching chess and devoting your body and mind to it is akin to willing to approach God your body, mind and soul, i.e., prayer in the general sense*

Hi Augustine,

I am really not trying to be deliberately dense, but I cannot understand your analogy.

Let’s see now, you said that your analogy consists of approaching chess and devoting your body and mind to it is “akin to willing to approach God your body, mind, and soul” which you claim to be “prayer in the general sense.”?

How do you teach this above suggestion of yours? How do you teach “devoting”? How can playing chess be analogous to “prayer in the general sense”?

I used chess as an analogy to distinguish the differences between concentrating, meditating, and prayer, and I did not include prayer as part of the game at all, I kept prayer outside of the game of chess. I pray for a victory, concentrate on the game, and meditate over won or lost strategies. The term ‘prayer’ does not convey all three in the one practice of ‘praying’.

So I am having difficulty in sifting out the meaning of prayer or meditation in your analogy. Could you expand on it? Thanks.

 

[Augustine]

No. I love the idea that Galileo scientifically dispproved the Copernican theory that the Earth was the center of the solar system and am very sorry that the Church forced him to recant his findings under the threat of torture, and disappointed in Galileo for not defying the Church especially when he knew he was provably right.

Galileo didn’t scientifically prove that the Earth wasn’t the center of the solar system, Copernicus did. Copernicus gathered such evidence while being sponsored by the Church and whose results contradicted the generally accepted Aristotelian theory.

However, Galileo wrongly stated that the Sun was the center of the universe and wanted this to be Church dogma, even though the Aristotelian theory never was. Later, Galileo was proven wrong, for the universe has no discernible center whatsoever, and the Church was right in refusing his push to make a mistaken theory a dogma.

Therefore, in spite of what one will normally read about Galileo, it was a matter of an opinionated scientist meddling in religious matters.

I don’t defend the threat of torture, but I applaud that the Church defended herself.

 

[Augustine]

OK, sorry about the confusing analogy.

Attaining to your original analogy, I just want to point out that in it chess is to God as all your actions are to prayer latu sensu, i.e., prayer stricto sensu, concentration and meditation.

Yet, I think that one can do all three at the same time while playing chess: while one wishes (prays) to win, one also considers the moves (concentrates) according to that wish (prayer) and one ponders (medidates) the outcome of each possible move further along.

If you can do this, you can pray and medidate at the same time on spiritual things too. Or maybe not, but speak for yourself.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

No. I love the idea that Galileo scientifically dispproved the Copernican theory that the Earth was the center of the solar system and am very sorry that the Church forced him to recant his findings under the threat of torture, and disappointed in Galileo for not defying the Church especially when he knew he was provably right.

Galileo didn’t scientifically prove that the Earth wasn’t the center of the solar system, Copernicus did. Copernicus gathered such evidence while being sponsored by the Church and whose results contradicted the generally accepted Aristotelian theory.

However, Galileo wrongly stated that the Sun was the center of the universe and wanted this to be Church dogma, even though the Aristotelian theory never was. Later, Galileo was proven wrong, for the universe has no discernible center whatsoever, and the Church was right in refusing his push to make a mistaken theory a dogma.

Therefore, in spite of what one will normally read about Galileo, it was a matter of an opinionated scientist meddling in religious matters.

I don’t defend the threat of torture, but I applaud that the Church defended herself.

Thanks for the clarification, my mistake.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Augustine:

Yet, I think that one can do all three at the same time while playing chess: while one wishes (prays) to win, one also considers the moves (concentrates) according to that wish (prayer) and one ponders (medidates) the outcome of each possible move further along.

Excellent explanation, thank you. But the crux is the ability to do all three at the same time. I do not have the ability to pray, meditate, concentrate or even contemplate all at once. Whether I’m playing chess or praying, I am incapable of praying, meditating, concentrating, or pondering simultaneously. One has to stop before another begins, and I just don’t see them melding together very well. I’ve been trying very hard recently and I’ve given up.

Since I am neither stupid nor talentless, I assume other college educated adults might be in the same fix that I am regarding an inability to pray and meditate at the same time. Therefore I would like to simplify things by isolating meditation and developing it in accordance with Catholic doctrine. So far I feel that I have something worthwhile to offer. But I still have to do a lot more reading to make sure what I’ve concocted is original, pragmatic, effective, and conforms to the teachings of Catholicism.

 

[Azenkoan]

I hesitate to mention the works of Thomas Keating, I did a quick search of the posts to this thread and didn’t find his name mentioned. He has written a number of books on Catholic meditation and some of the history of it in the Catholic tradition. I have three of his books but must confess I have only read one and scanned the others. I am much more familiar with Buddhist Vipassana or Insight meditation. I would recommend reading a Path With Heart by Jack Kornfield. Very good book for any individual on a spiritual path regardless of the tradition they are following. One thing I do when following the breath is remember that the word for spirit in greek is the same word for breath. Every time we breathe we are inhaling and exhaling the Holy Spirit. Peace!