How does one go to Heaven, Purgatory or Hell DIRECTLY IMMEDIATELY upon death? (Afterlife discussion)

[PLAT]

The problem is, you are still saying that unbaptised infants (and pagans, idk?) will go to hell if they die. (Please note that I am not suggesting you are wrong, since I am in no position to do in any way)

I asked you why recieving a “different” punishment in hell matter, and that is because I hold on to the teaching that hell is eternal seperation from God. Why then, this “difference” would matter when ulitmately, they have no chance of getting into heaven? (that’s what you said right?)

Although this thread is intended to be a broad discussion, please take note that the OP is talking about the immediate destination after death, not the punishments.

 

[Gregory_I]

I thikn you need to define hell as the eternal separation from God and the actual experience of hellfire.

Infants would experience the first, But God, in his mercy keeps them from the second type of torment.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Here are moe quotes from Popes and Augustine…

“If you want to be a Catholic do no believe, do no say, **and do not teach **that infants carried off by death before they are baptized can attain the remission of original sin.”
-Saint Augustine, Father, Doctor, and Bishop of the Church, On the Soul and its Origin Book II

“The idea that infants can be granted the rewards of eternal life without even the grace of baptism is utterly foolish.”
-Pope Saint Innocent I, Letter to the Bishops of the Church, 417 AD

“[Those dying with only original sin on their souls will suffer] no other pain, whether from material fire or from the worm of conscience, **except the pain **of being deprived forever of the vision of God.”
-Pope Innocent III (1160-1216),

“If what We have said up to now deals with the protection and the care of natural life, it should hold all the more in regard to the supernatural life which the newly born infant receives with Baptism. In the present economy there is no other way of communicating this life to the child who has not yet the use of reason. But, nevertheless, the state of grace at the moment of death is absolutely necessary for salvation. Without it, it is not possible to attain supernatural happiness, the beatific vision of God. An act of love can suffice for an adult to obtain sanctifying grace and supply for the absence of Baptism;** for the unborn child or for the newly born, this way is not open…”**-Pope Pius XII, October 29 1951, Congress of the Italian Catholic Association of Midwives

In the 5th Century, Pope St.Zosimus accepted the council of Carthage as his own and proclaimed it to the whole Church, with canonical punishment if his teaching (not discipline) was not followed, thus making it infallible. The Council of Ephesus continues by quoting the document:

" ’ We[Zosimus], however, by the inspiration of God…have referred all things to that of our brothers and co-bishops.’ " This is the beginning of his “Tractoria” and it tells us ALL things are referred to African bishops and which was the Council of Carthage received this great praise:

"Furthermore that which was determined in the decrees of the synod of Cathage, [418 AD] we have embraced as the Apostolic See’s own…" (Ephesus; Denzinger 136)

and The council of Ephesus says that :
“But although we do not dare to esteem lightly the deeper and more difficult parts of the questions which they [Augustine and Zosimus] have treated in more detail who have restrained the heretics, we do not consider it necessary to add what their writings, according to the aforementioned regulation of the Apostolic See, have taught us…”(Ephesus; Denzinger 142)

So What is so important that was written in the 16th Council of Carthage? Here it is:

“It has been decided likewise that if anyone says that for this reason the Lord said: “In my father’s house there are many mansions”(JN14:2): that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where the blessed infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is eternal life, let him be anathema. For when the lord says :“Unless a man be born of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God”(Jn3:5), what Catholic will doubt that he will be partner of the devil who has not deserved to be a co-heir of Christ? For he who lacks the right part will without doubt run into the left” (Denzinger 102 fn.2; 30th edition)

This quote was always understood to be Zosimus’ own, although it is from the 16th local council of Cathage, but as seen above how Ephesus confirms he called Carthage the Holy See’s own: “Furthermore that which was determined in the decrees of the synod of Cathage, [418 AD] we have embraced as the Apostolic See’s own…” (Ephesus; Denzinger 136).

Pope St. Zosimus Published and condemned those opposed to Carthage, clearly an infallible decree.

Is that enough yet?

Then St Thomas Aquinas Definition of Natural law in the Summa is now obsolete? What of his Definition of Invincible ignorance - Does it no longer apply?

 

[Gregory_I]

We are speaking of infants who are incapable of desire: Different kettle of fish. DOn’t Pit Thomas against Augustine, that’s a losing battle, especially since Dominicans are Augustinian…

 

[nice2000]

I went to Catholic school in the 1960’s and I was taught about Limbo. We were also taught to baptize a baby ourselves just in case the baby died before he could get baptized by a priest. Whether right or wrong, I baptized my babies right after they were born and later by a priest. I used to be of the opinion that surely babies who die without Baptism still went to heaven until I start to think about aborted babies. We all know that the devil is the author of murder. So if all these millions of aborted babies’ souls went straight to Heaven to worship God, wouldn’t the devil not like that. He doesn’t want souls to go to Heaven. So maybe the souls of these aborted babies don’t go straight to Heaven. Maybe there is a Limbo and even though there is no pain other than loss of seeing God. In this day and time, people like to think that everybody who is nice is going to Heaven. Nobody is taught about mortal sin or original sin anymore. I’m not arguing with either of the 2 people on this thread. You’re both right in what you quote. However, only God knows what happens to unbaptized souls. We just have to trust in His mercy.

On Purgatory, pray for the Poor Souls constanly.

Wow. I didn’t realize we could baptize our babies immediately after they were born, but of course have them also baptized by a Priest as soon as possible. You are so correct when you stated “In this day and time, people like to think that everybody who is nice is going to Heaven. Nobody is taught about mortal sin or original sin anymore.” You made me also think about aborted babies…hmmm do they really go straight to heaven? Because in reality they were never baptized or are they in purgatory? Those are very good questions and pretty scary if you think about. That is a lot of souls (50 million abortions per year)

 

[Gregory_I]

Broad is the Path to destruction.

WHy am I smiling???

 

[kingsley_osuji]

can a muslim go to purgatory?

 

[GEddie]

can a muslim go to purgatory?

Anybody can go to Purgatory.

.“Purgatory is NOT just for Catholics any more!”

ICXC NIKA

 

[PJM]

=PLAT;7447387]Things to consider include:

Acceptance / Ignorance / Rejection of the Catholic Teachings
Unconfessed Mortal / Venial Sins
State of mind (Scared of Hell / Fear God / etc.)
Amount of Faith and Works (according to own ability)
Sacrements recieved
Religious Belief (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Muslim, Buddist, Taoist, Agnostic, Atheist, etc.)
Prayers from People on Earth and Saints
(please consider other unmentioned factors if there are, ty)

Interesting question: Does entering Purgatory guarantee salvation?

Thanks.

Ket to this discussion and RIGHT undwerstanding is a CORRECT [and biblical] understanding of sin; its natureS and it’s effects and consequecnes:

**1John.1 Verses 8 to 10 **“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”

1. While all sin is abhorant to God; “Mortal sins” are so serious that they completly SEVER ones personal relationship with GOD UNTIL CONFESSED AND FORGIVEN
   Gods way!
2. ALL sin has a "public’ nature and effect that TOO requires FULL repayment:

EACH of these passaqes refer to PURGATORY. yes I know the term is NOT in the bible; neither is the term “bible.”

**Rev. 21: 27 **“But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

**Mt. 5: 26 **truly, I say to you, you will never get out[Of Purgatory] till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” This is the precise reason Purgatory is necessary from God’s viewpoint.

**Heb. 2: 10 **For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering."

This public nature of sin is termed “temporal punishment”… payback for the cost of damage our sins have cused others.

Consider for example: Murder, abortion, lying, sloath, envy, slander, missing Sunday Worship, theft… these are example of sins that clearly effect other people than the sinner alone. These incur a moral debt to be repaid. EVEN after the sins have been confessed and forgiven as God Commands.

Because God is Perfect we too MUST in an absolute sense need to be “perfected” in order to enther into His Presence. THAT is the purpose of Purgatory: kind of a 'Soul Wash" God requires.

There are other meansd God and the Chruch have for this payback while we are still on earth. Bit that is a seperate topic. Amen!

God Bless,
pat/PJM