How does our free will effect God's plans for a new person to be born?

[HaveFaith777]

I have the following question that I haven’t been able to find a clear answer for what the Catholic church says:

What if a person is never conceived that God had originally planned for because the future parents instead make a free will choice not to have children? I guess this could be considered for when a couple has an abortion as well, but my immediate thinking is that the unborn child would go to heaven. However, what if that person was never even conceived because of free will, what then?

 

[Bahman]

I have the following question that I haven’t been able to find a clear answer for what the Catholic church says:

What if a person is never conceived that God had originally planned for because the future parents instead make a free will choice not to have children? I guess this could be considered for when a couple has an abortion as well, but my immediate thinking is that the unborn child would go to heaven. However, what if that person was never even conceived because of free will, what then?

The more fundamental question is what was God plan about non-existence individual before act creation. They however can answer that there is no before and after for God in state of timeless hence God’s knowledge about creation and act creation are same. This God however cannot have any plan or choice.

 

[Bookcat]

I have the following question that I haven’t been able to find a clear answer for what the Catholic church says:

What if a person is never conceived that God had originally planned for because the future parents instead make a free will choice not to have children? I guess this could be considered for when a couple has an abortion as well, but my immediate thinking is that the unborn child would go to heaven. However, what if that person was never even conceived because of free will, what then?

Such is seeking to imagine God as God was not outside time.

God is God - not a creature within time. Indeed he holds all in existence.

God is outside time. He does not so much “foresee” as “sees”.

God – sees what we call past, present and future – all at once. He sees what is. In fact what is could not exist without God.

Freedom -the free choices as free choices are free and they are part of all this. God sees them coming forth all their freshness. They are free because of God. Without God I cannot think or act or choose…etc

It is not as if there is some play written in advance that we as actors just take our part when it comes time and speak our lines.

 

[Bookcat]

The more fundamental question is what was God plan about non-existence individual before act creation. They however can answer that there is no before and after for God in state of timeless hence God’s knowledge about creation and act creation are same. This God however cannot have any plan or choice.

Hi again Bahman. The OP is coming and asking their question to seek to understand what the Church teaches and how Christians thus understand or discuss this topic.

I understand you have your particular ideas - ones that are not coming from the Christian understanding and Divine Revelation -but such are not really to the purpose of this thread. It would seem to me that to start going around and around regarding them would rather highjack the thread and confuse the issue and not get to what the person is seeking here.

 

[Bookcat]

I have the following question that I haven’t been able to find a clear answer for what the Catholic church says:

What if a person is never conceived that God had originally planned for because the future parents instead make a free will choice not to have children? I guess this could be considered for when a couple has an abortion as well, but my immediate thinking is that the unborn child would go to heaven. However, what if that person was never even conceived because of free will, what then?

Such is seeking to imagine God as God was not outside time.

God is God - not a creature within time. Indeed he holds all in existence.

God is outside time. He does not so much “foresee” as “sees”…

God – sees what we call past, present and future – all at once. He sees what is. In fact what is could not exist without God.

Freedom -the free choices as free choices are free and they are part of all this. God sees them coming forth all their freshness. They are free because of God. Without God I cannot think or act or choose…etc

It is not as if there is some play written in advance that we as actors just take our part when it comes time and speak our lines.

God takes into account our free will - and remember God is outside of time. Not in some “time before time”.

 

[oldcelt]

Hi again Bahman. The OP is coming and asking their question to seek to understand what the Church teaches and how Christians thus understand or discuss this topic.

I understand you have your particular ideas - ones that are not coming from the Christian understanding and Divine Revelation -but such are not really to the purpose of this thread. It would seem to me that to start going around and around regarding them would rather highjack the thread and confuse the issue and not get to what the person is seeking here.

This is a philosophy forum, isn’t it? Perhaps the OP would find greater assistance and less controversy in Ask an Apologist.

John

 

[Bookcat]

This is a philosophy forum, isn’t it? Perhaps the OP would find greater assistance and less controversy in Ask an Apologist.

John

It is also is in “Catholic answers” and the OP is seeking:

“what the Catholic church says”

(The ask an apologist is a limited avenue do to space and time constraints)

 

[John_Martin]

I have the following question that I haven’t been able to find a clear answer for what the Catholic church says:

What if a person is never conceived that God had originally planned for because the future parents instead make a free will choice not to have children? I guess this could be considered for when a couple has an abortion as well, but my immediate thinking is that the unborn child would go to heaven. However, what if that person was never even conceived because of free will, what then?

There is “no person” when a conception does not happen. The soul is created at the instant of conception, not before, and in that instant there is a person, and the “new soul” begins to actualize or animate a living body that grows to manifest the person’s reality in the world.

Bookcat said it well, that God sees All in one view - All our past, present, and future is in one image to Him. So, He does not plan something then wait to see if His plan happens.
Imagine Moses climbing a mountain, then a couple hundred years later Elijah climbing a mountain, then a thousand years later Jesus with Peter, James, and John climbing a mountain. At the top of the mountain in a cloud they see each other and talk (Moses, Elijah, Jesus, with Peter James and John seeing them). They are in the presence of God, with God’s vision of reality. So they see each other. When Moses goes down the mountain he tells the people there is Another Prophet like him coming and they should “listen to him”. He was eavesdropping when the Father told Peter James and John to listen to Jesus.

 

[oldcelt]

There is “no person” when a conception does not happen. The soul is created at the instant of conception, not before, and in that instant there is a person, and the “new soul” begins to actualize or animate a living body that grows to manifest the person’s reality in the world.

Bookcat said it well, that God sees All in one view - All our past, present, and future is in one image to Him. So, He does not plan something then wait to see if His plan happens.
Imagine Moses climbing a mountain, then a couple hundred years later Elijah climbing a mountain, then a thousand years later Jesus with Peter, James, and John climbing a mountain. At the top of the mountain in a cloud they see each other and talk (Moses, Elijah, Jesus, with Peter James and John seeing them). They are in the presence of God, with God’s vision of reality. So they see each other. When Moses goes down the mountain he tells the people there is Another Prophet like him coming and they should “listen to him”. He was eavesdropping when the Father told Peter James and John to listen to Jesus.

But that soul must be created in time, does it not?

John

 

[John_Martin]

But that soul must be created in time, does it not?

John

I am not sure how your question grew out of what I said, not sure what you are asking.

 

[Ignatius]

What if a person is never conceived that God had originally planned for

That is a non-starter. You are conceiving of God as just a bigger, more powerful human being. He is the source of everything that is.

 

[HaveFaith777]

Such is seeking to imagine God as God was not outside time.

God is God - not a creature within time. Indeed he holds all in existence.

God is outside time. He does not so much “foresee” as “sees”…

God – sees what we call past, present and future – all at once. He sees what is. In fact what is could not exist without God.

Freedom -the free choices as free choices are free and they are part of all this. God sees them coming forth all their freshness. They are free because of God. Without God I cannot think or act or choose…etc

It is not as if there is some play written in advance that we as actors just take our part when it comes time and speak our lines.

God takes into account our free will - and remember God is outside of time. Not in some “time before time”.

Thank you, that description helps to understand it better. How does prayer fall into that? For example, if someone prays for someone to get better. Or for example, when Ninevah was saved because of repenting? Does God rearrange His whole past, present, future that he sees?

 

[HaveFaith777]

There is “no person” when a conception does not happen. The soul is created at the instant of conception, not before, and in that instant there is a person, and the “new soul” begins to actualize or animate a living body that grows to manifest the person’s reality in the world.

Bookcat said it well, that God sees All in one view - All our past, present, and future is in one image to Him. So, He does not plan something then wait to see if His plan happens.
Imagine Moses climbing a mountain, then a couple hundred years later Elijah climbing a mountain, then a thousand years later Jesus with Peter, James, and John climbing a mountain. At the top of the mountain in a cloud they see each other and talk (Moses, Elijah, Jesus, with Peter James and John seeing them). They are in the presence of God, with God’s vision of reality. So they see each other. When Moses goes down the mountain he tells the people there is Another Prophet like him coming and they should “listen to him”. He was eavesdropping when the Father told Peter James and John to listen to Jesus.

Wow, I never thought of the transfiguration passage that way. So does that mean that they are all the same scene just taking place in different times that met at that one instance? If so, do you have a link to the reference where found that? Thanks!

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you, that description helps to understand it better. How does prayer fall into that? For example, if someone prays for someone to get better.

God is outside of time. He not so much “foresees” -as “sees” – all of time is before him - all our decisions etc are all freshly before him (CCC 600:To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy.). And of course I cannot do Y without God…I cannot be I without God…I cannot pray without God …I cannot be without God.

Our choices - are part of things. As are the choices of others around us and circumstances that intersect. As is our prayer.

God has involved our freedom -including our prayer…we are indeed secondary causes …and our prayer is part of that.

 

[John_Martin]

Wow, I never thought of the transfiguration passage that way. So does that mean that they are all the same scene just taking place in different times that met at that one instance? If so, do you have a link to the reference where found that? Thanks!

When you are in the presence of God you see what he is seeing, which is a wholeness. One reference is Jesus, when he declared “before Abraham was born, I am”… Another reference is Catholic teaching on the Eucharist, that we are participating in the Last Supper in the upper room. But what got me really seeing this way was Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica describing how God knows (sees) all he knows.

(However, I have not read this description of the Transfiguration elsewhere, but based on the references given, I can see no other answer to Moses and Elijah being there - for a brief time they were “in the cloud” rather than on their mountain treks, in the presence of God and seeing the way God sees. The Father sees his Son shining, and so do those with him. The Father and the Son know Moses and Elijah and James and John, and for a moment they all know each other and know Jesus as his is in his Glory. It is the same with the Mass - there was only one sacrifice, is only one sacrifice, known by Jesus and the Father. And we are there at that one sacrifice, participating in it anew each day or week, the same flesh, the same blood, and the same resurrection. We only go to Mass once in our lives, but we are re-present at his table often, re-membering the participation. We are not travelling back in time to be there, we are “travelling” to the presence of God and of his Christ, to know as he knows, see as he sees, the night in which he was betrayed. At Mass, we are “in the cloud”, we are “in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day” as the beloved disciple wrote.

 

[oldcelt]

I am not sure how your question grew out of what I said, not sure what you are asking.

You should…time is of the essence. If you can’t answer that…well…

 

[John_Martin]

You should…time is of the essence. If you can’t answer that…well…

Something is wrong with your thinking -
I wrote: “The soul is created at the instant of conception”
You replied: “But that soul must be created in time, does it not?”

Conception happens at a certain time, does it not? And an “instant” happens at a point in time, does it not? So, why would you then ask the question “But that soul must be created in time, does it not?”

I would gladly answer the question, but I don’t know what you would like to know more than what was said already, that the soul is created at the instant of conception.

 

[Bahman]

Hi again Bahman. The OP is coming and asking their question to seek to understand what the Church teaches and how Christians thus understand or discuss this topic.

I understand you have your particular ideas - ones that are not coming from the Christian understanding and Divine Revelation -but such are not really to the purpose of this thread. It would seem to me that to start going around and around regarding them would rather highjack the thread and confuse the issue and not get to what the person is seeking here.

My answer was very appropriate to OP. In fact timeless God cannot have any plan since what is in his thought has to manifest itself as actual, creation.

 

[Bookcat]

My answer was very appropriate to OP.

The OP is coming and asking their question to seek to understand* what the Church teaches and how Christians thus understand or discuss this topic.*

I understand you have your particular ideas - ones that are not coming from the Christian understanding and Divine Revelation -but such are not really to the purpose of this thread. It would seem to me that to start going around and around regarding them would rather highjack the thread and confuse the issue and not get to what the person is seeking here.

 

[Bookcat]

My answer was very appropriate to OP. In fact timeless God cannot have any plan since what is in his thought has to manifest itself as actual, creation.

The OP is coming and asking their question to seek to understand* what the Church teaches and how Christians thus understand or discuss this topic.*

Not “do you agree with such…?”

I understand you have your particular ideas - ones that are not coming from the Christian understanding and Divine Revelation -but such are not really to the purpose of this thread. It would seem to me that to start going around and around regarding them would rather highjack the thread and confuse the issue and not get to what the person is seeking here.