How does Sola Fide survive Acts 14?

[guanophore]

Paul is pretty clear about how we are justified in Ephesians, too.

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

I always find it interesting how the quote stops at v.9.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 **For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. **

Jon is right, while works are not the basis of our salvation neither can they be separated from it. Saving faith is faith that works.

This is why Catholics reject "faith alone’. Saving faith is never “alone”. It is always accompanied byt the good works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[mwb85611]

The only thing that would really get a Protestant riled up on this issue would be the concept of grace being earned by those works, which is impossible to happen anyways, but it is often painted as such and argued as such. If everyone was aware of both his or her own tradition’s theology as well as that of others, then it wouldn’t really be an issue to begin with.

I can see how some protestants are coming around closer to agree with what the CC has been teaching for 2000 yrs.

I often wonder if protestants do understand what the Church ‘teach’ on this. Being outside the church is already a ‘grieveous’ sin against God.

Many Protestants still see themselves as being within the ‘catholic’ church, and not in a state of grievous sin. Also, in my experiences from 9 years studying at Catholic schools, volunteering at Catholic churches, and from dating a devout Catholic, the Protestants, Atheists, and Agnostics in the US typically know what the Church honestly teaches on this and more better than the Catholics do. I don’t think they’re really coming around to anything the Church has been teaching for 2000 years; rather, they are just more interested in and aware of theology in general.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

My summery was essentially JPII’s position in his “Joint Declaration on Justification” that was applauded by German Lutherans. Did you read it?

Unfortunately, I’ve never read the declaration. Futhermore, I didn’t realize you are speaking to Lutheran denominations as you’ve used Protestant as a descriptor. Considering the Lutheran reforms were largely ones of Magisterial nature, it would make sense they (as well as Anglicans and Methodists) would have a closer position on Justification to the Catholic Church than other Protestant denominations. However, the Baptist, Presbyterian, Reform, Anabaptist, Adventists and Pentacostal denominations are far more radical in reform and would not laud this position. As they make up the bulk of Protestantism today, Catholics and Protestants, by and large, are quite divergent when it comes to matters of salvation.

 

[zz912]

Everyone had very good points and arguments on this. I look forward to reading more of this forum.

Going to the heart of the matter, zz912 pointed out:

“We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.

My take from what I’ve learned from reading the Bible and other Christian studies:

To enter is infinitive and has the same meaning as present participle. So it can say even:

“We must go through many hardships (upon, while) entering the kingdom of God”

These hardships are not necessarily equal even to “good works”. Sometimes we go through hardships as Christians and we still don’t do the things we really should do or do them the way we’re supposed to. It may in fact be better to look at hardships as God’s own chastening.

Prov 3:11-12 (NIV) “My son, do not despise the Lord’s discipline and do not resent his rebuke, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.”

and…

Romans 8:28 Or that all things work together for good to those who love God, who; or that in all things God works together with those who love him to bring about what is good—with those who

No sincere Protestant I know of discounts works as not being important. They are rather the evidence of our faith. And even that faith is a gift from God. In that way, none of us can ever boast by saying we saved ourself.

This still doesn’t explain or reconcile faith alone belief. If there is no requirement for works, you don’t have to undergo hardships while entering Heaven.

 

[guanophore]

No sincere Protestant I know of discounts works as not being important. They are rather the evidence of our faith. And even that faith is a gift from God. In that way, none of us can ever boast by saying we saved ourself.

Yes. This is why the CC rejects “faith alone”. We recognize that saving faith is always accompanied by the good works it produces by that saving grace through the believer.

We also do not stop reading Eph. 2 at v. 9 like so many seem to do.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

If we “should” walk in them, then we find them intracately connected to our salvation.

 

[Good_Fella]

Sometimes we go through hardships as Christians and we still don’t do the things we really should do or do them the way we’re supposed to. It may in fact be better to look at hardships as God’s own chastening.

Suffering is a means of sanctification, just as good works are for Protestants.

No sincere Protestant I know of discounts works as not being important. They are rather the evidence of our faith. And even that faith is a gift from God. In that way, none of us can ever boast by saying we saved ourself.

But unlike Catholics, most Protestants do not believe that people are also justified by their good works done in grace. On the contrary, we clearly read in James (2:24):* “Man is justified by works* and not faith alone.” In Catholic theology a person is justified by faith which is informed by charity (caritas). Faith cannot obtain for us the application of divine grace and justification if good works done in garce are not added to it. We should note that the Greek word for “justified” employed by James is* dikaiow*, which is the same word Paul uses in Romans 4, 3 on the subject of justification. I mention this because Protestants have argued that James doesn’t mean justification in the same context as Paul does. Abraham finally obtained the grace of justification by his willingness to sacrifice his son, Isaac, out of a sincere love for God together with his trust. It wasn’t his trust that was justified by his love. One does not necessarily have to love a person in order to trust him. It’s the person who loves that is justified by the grace of God.

Jesus said: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."There were many Jewish elders who observed the law, but in their hearts they failed to love. Our Lord condemned them as hypocrites, whose observance of the law was nothing but an empty demonstration of piety. Charitable works are not necessarily a demonstration of true faith. If love is absent, good works amount to nothing more than an outward show which cannot justify a person before God; and faith itself is dead (Jas 2, 17). In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus condemns those who abstain from performing charitable deeds and casts them out from the eschatological kingdom of heaven. James had our Lord’s admonition in mind when he wrote that the failure to do good works is a sin (cf. 4, 17); so good works are obviously necessary for the perfection and completion of our justification. We lose our justification before God (not men by a demonstrative faith) by sinning against him. The faith of the scribes and Pharisees was practiced in vain, for the religious elders were more inclined to impose the rigours of Mosaic law on widows and orphans than to come to their aid by acts of charity. They had even criticized Jesus for healing the sick on the sabbath, for which they were harshly admonished by the Lord.

John assures us in his first letter (4, 8): “Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love.” In v.16 he adds: “We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him.” In other words, we are initially justified by the faith we have in God’s love for us, but our justification is rendered complete by the love we have for God and our neighbour in collaboration with the infusion of divine grace. True charity (“remaining in love”) must be added to faith in order for us to be justified (*“remain in God” *).

"He from the essence of the Father, nor is the Son again Son according to essence, but in consequence of virtue, as we who are called sons by grace."
St. Athanasius, Defence of the Nicene Creed, 22 (A.D. 351)

PAX :heaven:

 

[hseritt]

If then we are justified only by works, how many works will it take for someone to get to heaven?

I think rather we are justified by our faith. If our “faith” is real, then our works are real. Works is evidence but works alone do not save us.

 

[hseritt]

Honestly and in due respect, I think we do agree on this. I’ve seen Catholics do as many good works as Protestants do. But I’ve also seen people who outspokenly deny the existence of God do good works too. I think we are possibly arguing which comes first, the chicken or the egg. I honestly can’t say you’re wrong when you say good works must be there – there must be evidence of your faith. But works alone do not save.

 

[hseritt]

" If there is no requirement for works, you don’t have to undergo hardships while entering Heaven."

Just because there is no requirement for works to go to heaven, does not mean we will not endure hardships. Enduring a hardship is not something we can merely go to God later and say, hey we deserve to be saved. I endured Your hardship. In this case, we’d be able to boast about saving ourselves.

 

[john_aurelius]

I think trying to equate Acts 14:22 with works is poor exegesis as if tribulation were a work. It is more something with which we (and the disciples in chapter 14) are being aflicted with.

We are not pelagians (or even semi-pelagians) we are not saved through our own works but by grace, through faith, unto good works which were prepared in advance for us (see above Eph 2:8-10)

 

[Good_Fella]

If then we are justified only by works, how many works will it take for someone to get to heaven?

Catholics do not believe that we are saved only by works, but by faith and works: not works of the law by mere observance or for the purpose of placing God in our debt, but works done by the grace of God out of love without any reward being the primary objective of our acts of mercy. Jesus has told us that it is mercy, not sacrifice (a demonstration of having faith) our heavenly Father desires of us.

I think rather we are justified by our faith. If our “faith” is real, then our works are real. Works is evidence but works alone do not save us.

You forget that faith and love are two distinct theological virtues and, according to Paul, love is the greater of the two. So neither virtue can be an attribute of the other. We are not saved by faith alone nor by works alone. Meanwhile our works are real and salvific if done in faith purely out of sincere love. We are saved by faith informed by charity. And unless we perform acts of charity out of genuine sincerity, our faith will not save us. You dismiss the importance of love in the order of justification and seem to suggest that good works are merely required to demonstrate our faith. But our faith is incomplete without love. Thus faith initially justifies us, but is perfected and completed by good works done in grace out of love for God and our neighbour: the two great commandments.

If I have all faith so as** to move mountains** but do not have love, I am nothing.
*1 Corinthians 13, 2 *

Unlike the Protestant reformers of the 16th century, Paul does not distinguish a “real” faith from an “unreal” faith. In the above passage he speaks of faith in itself as it is defined in the metaphor of the ability to move mountains and quantified by the word “all”. Hence, if one possesses the virtue of faith without the added compliment of love, he cannot be justified. No individual can merit his heavenly reward by faith alone. Love must be added to it, regardless if the person can move mountains and demonstrate supernatural abilities. He may appear to have faith by donating a huge sum of money to charity, but if it’s for tax benefits and self-gain, and not done out of love and compassion for the poor, he will be justified only in the eyes of men who can’t read his heart - not in the eyes of God.

Was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without spirit is dead, so also** faith without works is dead**.
James 2, 25-26

"For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he* wrought righteousness and truth through faith***?"
St. Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 31 [A.D. 98]

p.s. By the same token, Catholics can argue “if our works are real then our faith is real.”

PAX :harp:

 

[Good_Fella]

Honestly and in due respect, I think we do agree on this. I’ve seen Catholics do as many good works as Protestants do. But I’ve also seen people who outspokenly deny the existence of God do good works too. I think we are possibly arguing which comes first, the chicken or the egg. I honestly can’t say you’re wrong when you say good works must be there – there must be evidence of your faith. But works alone do not save.

It isn’t a question of whether someone is a Catholic, Protestant, or athiest; if anyone performs an act of charity without sincere love for the other person, that act does not justify him or her before God.

Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
1 Peter 4, 8

I think it is a mistake to define faith as an intellectual belief in God’s existence. One can know God without believing he is real in a preconscious way, by living a life in accordance with his will without even knowing it. Did not Jesus assure the proud and obstinate Pharisees that prostitutes and tax collectors would enter the kingdom of heaven before them? Intellectual knowledge of God’s existence was not the issue on this occasion. Our Lord was judging and comparing these religious elders and the ostrasized by the measure of their pride: religious pride assuming the worse form. The more pride, the less love. So professing knowledge of God’s existence is not the basis for having faith, unless one claims to understand what it is God expects from him in the conduct of his or her life. But a person can do what God expects of him or her without believing in his existence.

John defines knowing God as living a life that mirrors the divine essence. An athiest who habitually loves his neighbour with all sincerity as much as he loves himself, by the sufficient grace he has unconsciously received, knows God without having to believe in his existence or by being aware of Him without a conscious affirmation. One does not necessarily have to intellectually affirm God’s existence to know God. Knowledge of God can assume the form of living a life in conformity with his will, of partaking in the divine life through love which is God.

Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten of God and knows God. Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love.
1 John 4, 7-8

To be begotten of God is to be deemed worthy of being an adopted son or daughter of God, and therefore justified. John refers to everyone and whoever without qualifying people on the basis of their religious convictions or lack of them. Faith can be viewed as knowing how to act by hearing the word through the voice of conscience, while love and charity can be construed as acts that perform the word implanted in the heart and mind by the grace of God. James (1, 22-25) does exhort us to be not only hearers of the word, but also doers of the word implanted in our hearts. In order to be justified, one must observe the perfect law of love and freedom that resides in the human heart by the sufficient grace of God, which all have received in their humanity having been created in God’s image. Faith, however we wish to define it, still initially justifies, but it is perfected and completed by works of love done in God’s grace.

“You see indeed, then, how the strength of the Lord is cooperative in human endeavours, so that no one can build without the Lord, no one can preserve without the Lord, no one can undertake anything without the Lord.”
St. Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, 2:84 [A.D. 389]

PAX :hug3: