How does submitting to Church Authority Contradict Christ?

[Robert_in_SD]

Hello All;

In the context of another discussion, a fellow poster who professes to be a former Catholic made the following comment:

Giver:

I am no longer a Catholic, because God has taught me that no denominational church is teaching the Word of God. Being submitted to the authority of a church would make it almost impossible to do the work that Jesus has asked me to do.

I have heard and read comments very similar to this from many of our non-denominational brothers and sisters, who seem to insist upon the false dichotomy of “Church” versus “Christ.” The logic seems to run like this: (1) You can only submit to one authority; and (2) If you submit to the authority of a specific “denomination” then you are not submitting to Christ.

I asked for a response; stating in part:
Robert in SD:

…
You have not really explained how your conclusion follows from the facts. Are you saying that one cannot submit to the authority of the Church because they must submit to the authority of Christ? Why do these two “submissions” have to be mutually exclusive. When I was a child I submitted to the authority of my parents, but I also submitted to the authority of the local, state, and federal governments by obeying the laws. Was I rejecting my mother and father by obeying the laws of the state, or was I rejecting the authority of the state by recognizing the authority of my parents over me in matters of family and daily living? Isn’t it the same with the Church that Christ founded on Peter and the other Apostles…

Quote:
[15] if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. (1 Tim 3:15)
…to pass along the truth that he taught to successive generations? If I am submitting to Christ’s Church, how am I placing myself into a position where it is “almost impossible” to do Christ’s work. Perhaps it is simply your own works that are in conflict with the works Christ wants from you?

To avoid thread drift in the other thread, I’m reposting this issue here for others to join in…

Fellow Catholics: How do you respond to this argument when you hear it from our non-denominational friends in Christ;

N-D friends: How do you answer my questions from the above?

-Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Jesus identifies Himself with the Church. In Acts 9, we read that Saul was persecuting the Church. But what did Jesus say when He appeared to him? “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” even though Saul had never met Christ before.

To submit to the Church is to submit to Christ.

 

[Fidelis]

Start with these quotes. To Peter, the head of the Church:

Mt 16:19 -
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

To the Apostles (leaders of the Church) collectively:

Mt 18:18 -
Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mt 15-17
"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

…shows that, in addition to binding and loosing, the Church has at least one other type of authority–that of determining whether an individual should be disfellowshipped. This also applies to their authority to bind and loose when it comes to forgiving sins, as we see in John 20:

21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Finally, the Apostle Paul clearly exercises authority over those he ministers to. In 1 Corinthians 5:

1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. 3 For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, **I have already pronounced judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. **When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

the idea of any organization, even Christ’s Church, not having anyone in authority to keep order, guard doctrine, and protect the rights of all is simply childish and ludicrous.

 

[Philthy]

KayCee has it right!

The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ and is not “separate” from the Him. Therefore, to submit to the Church is to submit ot Christ. To believe that submitting to the Church is contrary to the will of Christ, is simply to be mistaken.

 

[Pax]

Here is another question to ask those that will not submit to the authority of the Church:

"Do you believe scripture when it tells us that “the household of God, which is the church of the living God,[is]the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”?[1 Tim3:15]

 

[Pax]

Let’s see what scripture says about authority and our obligation to submit to it.

In Romans 13:1-7 we are told to submit to civil authority. The passage reads as follows:

“LET EVERY person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.”

If God wishes us to be subject to civil authority, then it follows that He desires even more that we be subject to the spiritual authority of the Church. Scripture identifies authority within the Church many different times.

In Matthew 16:18 Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom and an individual authority as head of the church to bind and to loose.

In Matthew 18:18 The power to bind and loose is given to the apostles collectively

In Matthew 28:18-20 Jesus tells the disciples, ““All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

In John 20:21-22 Jesus says to the apostles, “Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” ** And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

In Luke 10:16 Jesus says to the apostles,
“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

In 2 Cor 10:8 the apostle Paul mentions authority saying, “For even if I boast a little too much of our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I shall not be put to shame.”

In 2 Cor 13:10 he says, “I write this while I am away from you, in order that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down.”

Paul tells Titus, “Declare these things; exhort and reprove** with all authority. Let no one disregard you.**” [Titus 2:15]

In 1 Timothy chapter 3 Paul mentions bishops(overseers) and calls the church “the pillar and bulwark of the truth. In chapter 5 verse 17 Paul tells Timothy, “Let the elders **who rule ** well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;

This is not an exhaustive list of NT scriptures that speak of Church authority…there are more.

The scriptures also speak of disobedience and of those that do not accept authority. Examples of these instances can be found in Jude 1:8-11, 3 John 1:9, and 2 Peter 3:14-18.

 

[asquared]

Robert in SD:

HelloI have heard and read comments very similar to this from many of our non-denominational brothers and sisters, who seem to insist upon the false dichotomy of “Church” versus “Christ.” The logic seems to run like this: (1) You can only submit to one authority; and (2) If you submit to the authority of a specific “denomination” then you are not submitting to Christ.

I.

Christ appointed apostles in whom He vested his authority, which they pass on to their successors. Persons who use this logic have attempted to vest themselves with Christ’s authority, and can provide no scriptural basis for their claim of authority.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Lets use simple logic away from Scripture.

If each of us read Holy Scripture, the resultant interpretations could be all over the map (and are today - manifested in how various denominations interpret the same passage).

If 5 people in the room interpret the same passage differently, and all believe they are divinely inspired in their interpretation, yet all of those conflict with each other, who is to say which one is correct? Each can pound his chest and say, “mind is the right one because I know I am inspired by the Holy Spirit”. Well, the problem is that the Holy Spirit cannot contradict Himself so once again, it comes back to the question of who decides which interpretation is correct?

It is like setting sail on a ship where all passengers are “captain”. The ship will never arrive at any particular destination because everyone will be changing course. The Church is the ship, and the captain is the same Peter to whom Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom. That is, not Peter in heaven, but Peter on earth, the current Pope. What he binds on earth God will honor and bound in heaven. And, Peter does not work alone, but through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Christ promised his Church would be protected and it takes a pure act of faith to believe that.

All this having been said, now go back to all of those great scriptural posts above mine to see the solution Christ gave us to this human problem. Christ did not say he would protect the individual from error. He said he would protect his Church from error. Therefore, it is possible for this person to err in what he is reading. It is also possible for a priest, bishop or cardinal to err. It is even possible for a Pope to err, unless he is speaking “from the throne” or “ex cathedra”, which btw does not require him to say that he is doing so, as illustrated in Ordinatio Sacredotalis by Pope John Paul II reserving the priesthood to males, and its Responsum ad Dubium by the forrmer Cardinal Ratzinger. Even when he is not speaking ex cathedra, Catholics must use prudence in following his words and recommendations as pastoral.

 

[Thal59]

Robert in SD,

PAX hit the nail on the head. However, you state that…

“In the context of another discussion, a fellow poster who professes to be a former Catholic made the following comment:…”

I would be more apt to believe that he has always been a non-denominational especially when he chooses the words…

“I am no longer a Catholic, because God has taught me that no denominational church is teaching the Word of God.”

What you need to keep in mind is that when someone decides to relate to Christ outside of His church, they MUST deny the church’s authority, validity and even its priesthood; or else they become guilty of rejecting the ones God has authorized - which becomes the same thing as rejecting God…

“He who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

Thal59

 

[trogiah]

I believe the following scripture has something to say in regards to your question

"Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples,
saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice…”
This is from Matthew chapter 23 and I believe it outlines the right approach to human religious leadership that has lost its focus.

I feel well served (for the most part) by the priests, bishops and popes that have been the leaders of the church in my lifetime but I know they are not perfect and I believe we are all called to seek God’s kingdom, to seek perfection, even when the examples of our leaders are less than perfect.

That doesn’t mean we should dismiss the leadership as irrelevant.

I can’t say I understand exactly what Jesus expects us to do when Church leadership falls short but it seems clear that the heirarchy of the church deserves a measure of respect because of their position regardless of what we may think of its actions.

I am interested to know what Catholics and Non denominational Christians think of that particular passage.

peace

Jim

 

[Thal59]

It is really quite simple Jim.

Members of the congregation are obliged to obey the heirarchy because it is God who has given them their authority. We, as members of the congregation, have no right to disobey or create schism. We may be able to point out abuses by the heirarchy, but it must be done from within the church. We have to trust God that He will eventually put all things in order.

Thal59

 

[trogiah]

Thal59:

It is really quite simple Jim.

Members of the congregation are obliged to obey the heirarchy because it is God who has given them their authority. We, as members of the congregation, have no right to disobey or create schism. We may be able to point out abuses by the heirarchy, but it must be done from within the church. We have to trust God that He will eventually put all things in order.

Thal59

After carefully considering what you have written I conclude I do not disagree with it, but I feel that a sense of perspective, of priority, must be kept. What are the consequences of disobeying the laws enacted by the heirarchy of the Church versus disobeying God’s laws.

From Matthew’s gospel:

“Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” From this I conclude that God is most pleased with those who follow the small details of the law as well as the important aspects of the law and of righteousness(such as the love of God and neighbor) but that a person should be more concerned about being right with God than with the details of the law. Without being right with God, we can’t even enter God’s kingdom in which case greatness means nothing.
As regrettable as it may be, my life experience has been that some people, because of their own flaws as well as the flaws of individuals in Church leadership, find it very difficult to make peace with God and the Church at the same time. In such a case I believe a person should seek that peace with God first, not because the Church doesn’t matter but because God matters more.

I do believe that the Catholic Church will survive as the instrument through which God’s kingdom is made known to the world, and hopefully, someday, peace with the Church will come automatically with peace with God.

-Jim

 

[MysticRose]

I reply with saying this to them

Mat 16:15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter;** and upon this rock I will build my church,** and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean “invisible” unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.

1 Cor. 14:33 - God cannot be the author of the Protestant confusion. Only the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church claims and proves to be Christ’s Church.

Act 20:26 Wherefore I take you to witness this day that I am clear from the blood of all men.
Act 20:27 For I have not spread to declare unto you all, the counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood.

G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see’-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) **a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation ** (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - **assembly, church.**Meaning that this term can mean the place or the body of believers so therefore when it is used in teh Bible it does not necessarily ONLY mean the MYSTICAL BODY but also the Visible Church itself that is set on Hill that Christ mentioned in Matthew 5…