How does the church explain this:

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bloke916

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Pardon me for what may seem a silly question to some but I have yet come accross a satisfactory answer to this and it is a serious question I have had for some time -

But what sort of guidance or expectations did God have for those who never had an opportunity to be Christian, in particular those living remote jungles prior to Moses (I guess I am talking about <600BC)? It doesn’t seem fair to me that we benfit from Jesus and his teachings but there are some that could possibly, through no fault of their own, never come to know about Jesus, the Holy Spirit, God etc.

Why would God wait so long and why would he pick the Jews? Did God really have to make a choice as to who would be the chosen ones? Couldn’t have God come to all of those on earth at the time?
 
bloke916 said:
Pardon me for what may seem a silly question to some but I have yet come accross a satisfactory answer to this and it is a serious question I have had for some time -

But what sort of guidance or expectations did God have for those who never had an opportunity to be Christian, in particular those living remote jungles prior to Moses (I guess I am talking about <600BC)? It doesn’t seem fair to me that we benfit from Jesus and his teachings but there are some that could possibly, through no fault of their own, never come to know about Jesus, the Holy Spirit, God etc.

Why would God wait so long and why would he pick the Jews? Did God really have to make a choice as to who would be the chosen ones? Couldn’t have God come to all of those on earth at the time?
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**Catechism of the Catholic Church **

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
 
but not only would it not be their fault, but they would have never had the opportunity? Is there a reason why some of us have the opportunity and others never did?
 
bloke916 said:
but not only would it not be their fault, but they would have never had the opportunity? Is there a reason why some of us have the opportunity and others never did?
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A very simple reason. How could Jesus have been born all over the world in different places at the same time?
 
bloke916 said:
Pardon me for what may seem a silly question to some but I have yet come accross a satisfactory answer to this and it is a serious question I have had for some time -

But what sort of guidance or expectations did God have for those who never had an opportunity to be Christian, in particular those living remote jungles prior to Moses (I guess I am talking about <600BC)? It doesn’t seem fair to me that we benfit from Jesus and his teachings but there are some that could possibly, through no fault of their own, never come to know about Jesus, the Holy Spirit, God etc.

Why would God wait so long and why would he pick the Jews? Did God really have to make a choice as to who would be the chosen ones? Couldn’t have God come to all of those on earth at the time?
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This is why Jesus asks us to pray for those who do not know Him.

As for why God chose Israel, He chose Israel because it is the smallest nation and the one that would give Him the most grief. He works against obstacles and in ways you’d think He wouldn’t. He is a mysterious God.
 
bloke916 said:
but not only would it not be their fault, but they would have never had the opportunity? Is there a reason why some of us have the opportunity and others never did?
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My view has been that every Jewish woman had the opportunity to the be the mother of Jesus, but it took till Mary before one freely chose that God’s will be done in her.
 
bloke916 said:
Pardon me for what may seem a silly question to some but I have yet come accross a satisfactory answer to this and it is a serious question I have had for some time -

But what sort of guidance or expectations did God have for those who never had an opportunity to be Christian, in particular those living remote jungles prior to Moses (I guess I am talking about <600BC)? It doesn’t seem fair to me that we benfit from Jesus and his teachings but there are some that could possibly, through no fault of their own, never come to know about Jesus, the Holy Spirit, God etc.

Why would God wait so long and why would he pick the Jews? Did God really have to make a choice as to who would be the chosen ones? Couldn’t have God come to all of those on earth at the time?
Click to expand...
Muhammad came after Jesus, so why did God choose the Muslims and not the Christians at that point? More interestingly, why has no Judo/Muslim/Christian religious prophet or leader come out of anywhere except the middle east area? You don’t even see anything close to the same ideas in China or the Americas during that time until imperialism.
 
A theory, God wanted men to spread the word. Communications being what they are he waited until the proper time and place for global communications.

Why Jews in the Middle East? Because links to East Asia where in place along with the Roman Empire. The political system was in place and the logistical situation was in place.

Suppose that God knew that Europe would reign supreme over the world for a varity of reasons but also his word had to be protected from warriors in inter- European conflicts.

I would say the pentecostal revivals happened in America 100 years ago for the same sort of reasons as those folks with such an evangelic drive had to be mated with a free, from governmental influence, distribution system. American TV and later the internet.
 
liquidpele said:
Muhammad came after Jesus, so why did God choose the Muslims and not the Christians at that point? More interestingly, why has no Judo/Muslim/Christian religious prophet or leader come out of anywhere except the middle east area? You don’t even see anything close to the same ideas in China or the Americas during that time until imperialism.
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Throughout human history men have believed that the world does not explain itself, that we do not exist by chance and that reality has a spiritual as well as a material dimension. There is no reason why prophets, mystics and saints in different cultures should not have been inspired with insight into the nature of God, the spiritual life and the purpose of existence. Aldous Huxley gives a detailed account of the common factors in all religions in his book The Perennial Philosophy.

Christians believe that Jesus came for all members of the human race not just for Christians and that we all determine our own destiny in the light of our conscience. It is absurd to believe we shall be deprived of the joy in heaven if we err through ignorance and no fault of our own. No matter how rudimentary our conscience is it helps us to choose what is good and reject what is evil.
 
bloke916 said:
Pardon me for what may seem a silly question to some but I have yet come accross a satisfactory answer to this and it is a serious question I have had for some time -

But what sort of guidance or expectations did God have for those who never had an opportunity to be Christian, in particular those living remote jungles prior to Moses (I guess I am talking about <600BC)? It doesn’t seem fair to me that we benfit from Jesus and his teachings but there are some that could possibly, through no fault of their own, never come to know about Jesus, the Holy Spirit, God etc.

Why would God wait so long and why would he pick the Jews? Did God really have to make a choice as to who would be the chosen ones? Couldn’t have God come to all of those on earth at the time?
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The people who were born before Jesus was born were given a chance at salvation when Jesus died on the Cross and then “descended to the dead” (as it says in the creed). People were not in Heaven nor in Hell until then.
 
Eucharisted said:
This is why Jesus asks us to pray for those who do not know Him.

As for why God chose Israel, He chose Israel because it is the smallest nation and the one that would give Him the most grief. He works against obstacles and in ways you’d think He wouldn’t. He is a mysterious God.
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No, he chose Israel because of Jacob / Israel’s faith and built his decedents into a nation. The nation didn’t exist.

I agree though on why Jesus asked us to pray for those who don’t know him.

Let me add something to Omyo12’s post. Some Protestants want to rail on the Catholic Church because of what they see as seemingly “pagan” influences. Yet of course many of those same “influences” are in their beliefs as well. How could this be? Because I believe while God gave a separate early covenant to Israel, He obviously knew it would eventually fail and He would send the Son to do what the men of Israel could not. At that point the Covenant would be open to the whole world. To prepare for this He allowed Truths to be dispersed in a number of Ancient religions so that when Christ came they could recognize the TRUTH.

Think of the Magi right? I like to point out the Pagans on the Mantel at Christmas. 🙂 The Magi were not Jewish, they would be, in Biblical terms Pagans - yet they found the TRUTH didn’t they? They found Christ when even many who claimed to be part of the Covenant could not.

Christ’s mercy is more than we can ever imagine, I believe God has a plan for those who truly attempt to follow find him. WE know that forgiveness and ability comes through Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross but if we didn’t know that was how, would it make that sacrifice any more real?

Joe
 
tonyrey said:
Throughout human history men have believed that the world does not explain itself, that we do not exist by chance and that reality has a spiritual as well as a material dimension. There is no reason why prophets, mystics and saints in different cultures should not have been inspired with insight into the nature of God, the spiritual life and the purpose of existence. Aldous Huxley gives a detailed account of the common factors in all religions in his book The Perennial Philosophy.

Christians believe that Jesus came for all members of the human race not just for Christians and that we all determine our own destiny in the light of our conscience. It is absurd to believe we shall be deprived of the joy in heaven if we err through ignorance and no fault of our own. No matter how rudimentary our conscience is it helps us to choose what is good and reject what is evil.
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You’re making the point that other societies have similar beliefs or morals, but is just having similarities enough to be Christian? I mean, you have the whole idea of the anonymous christian, but does it not just seem like a band aid explanation? Would having the same morals, seemingly for no where, not point to a source other than the Christian God?
 
Prodigal_Son said:
My view has been that every Jewish woman had the opportunity to the be the mother of Jesus, but it took till Mary before one freely chose that God’s will be done in her.
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That would requre for every Jewish woman prior to Jesus’ conception to have been Immaculately Concieved. This is not the teaching of the Church.
 
kage_ar said:
That would requre for every Jewish woman prior to Jesus’ conception to have been Immaculately Concieved. This is not the teaching of the Church.
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God operates outside of time. He knows what decisions we will freely make in advance. Unless the Immaculate Conception *caused * her acceptance of her call, my explanation still makes logical sense.
 
liquidpele said:
You’re making the point that other societies have similar beliefs or morals, but is just having similarities enough to be Christian? I mean, you have the whole idea of the anonymous christian, but does it not just seem like a band aid explanation? Would having the same morals, seemingly for no where, not point to a source other than the Christian God?
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“seemingly” is the key word. It is more likely that universal beliefs and values point to the reality of God. Where else would they point? Nowhere?
Christians do not have the monopoly of God. We do not believe God is only concerned about Christians or that it is necessary to be a Christian to reach heaven. God does not have preselected favourites. We believe Jesus died for everyone, not just the select few. His love liberates even those who have never heard of Him if they are motivated by love for others - and even those who reject Him if their lack of belief is not the result of intellectual pride. We are not expected to be infallible or impeccable. What counts is the extent to which put His teaching into practice, wittingly or unwittingly.
 
tonyrey said:
“seemingly” is the key word. It is more likely that universal beliefs and values point to the reality of God. Where else would they point? Nowhere?
Christians do not have the monopoly of God. We do not believe God is only concerned about Christians or that it is necessary to be a Christian to reach heaven. God does not have preselected favourites. We believe Jesus died for everyone, not just the select few. His love liberates even those who have never heard of Him if they are motivated by love for others - and even those who reject Him if their lack of belief is not the result of intellectual pride. We are not expected to be infallible or impeccable. What counts is the extent to which put His teaching into practice, wittingly or unwittingly.
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You’ve heard me before say it was interesting how people relate God to a father figure. Is it really a surprise that different cultures think up an all powerful father figure? Most other cultures had more pagan type gods anyway, hardly ones you would compare with the modern version of the Christian God. I simply think it’s irresponsible to attribute the same morals seen in other societies to your same God when their religious practices were so very different. Between the Aztecs, Buddhism, Hinduism, the Pagan gods in Scandinavia, the Gods of the Native Americans, etc, do you really see a common theme. Sure, of course you can come up with some. Love of your family, sacrifice, humility, honour, power, knowledge, respect, etc. The real question is if you think those underlying factors are representative of Christianity or not. I would say they are of humanity, as that is the common theme and not the religion or the God worshipped.

Now, I understand your point I think… You can claim that the different morals mentioned that I think are of humanity are of God if you like, but accepting that for the sake of argument, what does that say of all catholic ritual and belief? Would it not mean that you just have to be a good person? What would be the point of confining oneself to one religion if they are all based off the morality God gave us? Why send Jesus to die if only a section of humanity appreciates it? It just doesn’t seem to fit well for me.
 
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