How does the church handle the prophetic gift in the 21st century?

[Vindictive]

I recently had an experience that was so profoundly disturbing that I ended up spending a week in a mental hospital because of it. I experienced on two separate occasions an overwhelming religious fervor that was so intense I was rendered unable to express myself clearly. The psychiatrists have categorized it as a psychotic episode. The problem is, I’ve never felt better about my life than I did just before it happened. I wasn’t stressed… I was joyful. It was almost the reverse of a psychotic episode, if anything.

I realized some of the most amazingly joyful things about existence… and also some of the most saddening. I’ve emailed members of the local clergy, but as yet, none of them have responded to me…

What am I supposed to do?

If you’re interested in my story or think you know someone who can help me who ISN"T a psychiatrist, (because I already have one of those, thank you very much and I do realize exactly how crazy I sound) please read my blog…

vindictiveranting.blogspot.com/

Tell me what you think. Help me understand what the hell is going on with me, because its terribly frightening in some ways, but I’m afraid NOT to say something, because if what I see is true, I HAVE to share it. Sounding crazy is part of my sacrifice to try to make sure as many people as possible hear what I have to say.

If there is an official church office on validating prophecy, I would love to hear from them. Someone, please help me.

 

[FCEGM]

I did read your account and saw some insights into the situation of the world, but also some thoughts that are far from true prophecy as they go against the revelation of God in Christ and are contradictory to the teaching of His Church (this is THE key to discerning whether a prophecy is truly from God or not). What you may have experienced was a sudden exaltation of spirit, jumbled with your own usual patterns of thought as an agnostic - or something.

If you have a Catholic monastic community in your vicinity that could be a good resource for you for some spiritual direction.

 

[Barbkw]

You’re not an agnostic!

Few Christians have written as well about God.

It might make you a bit “crazy” - but from what I’ve read you’ve allowed the Holy Spirit to awaken your soul.

You wrote this to yourself:

“This (absolute terror, fear, rejection) is what hell feels like. If you can’t convince Krysti to believe you, she will spend eternity in hell and you will feel (sadness, failure) because you didn’t convince her.”

You may want to dictate the movement of the Holy Spirit, but that isn’t how He works

That’s where hope, love and faith come in on your part. And patience, lots and lots of patience.

It might be helpful to condense and focus your relationships right now. Do what is humanly possible and give to God the impossible. Offer it up when you’re overwhelmed.

Talk with God, pray, fear not, and keep talking to like minded people.

Peace !

 

[Mumbles140]

There isn’t much talk of prophecy anymore - that is why John was known as the final prophet for his writings found in Revelation (the Book of the Apocalypse). It prophesies the future struggles of the Church, and most importantly, the Second Coming of Christ. Any communications with God (or apparitions on His behalf) and man since then have been mostly about revelation, but not actual prophecy.

As for your comment about ‘anyone can be the Second Coming of Christ if they wanted to’, I find that to be a completely heretical statement. Firstly, for anyone who believes they can predict the Second Coming of Christ, they need only read the beginning of the Acts of the Apostles: He answered them, “It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has established by his own authority” (Acts 1:7).

Furthermore, if you read Revelation, you will see about the signs forewarning of the Second Coming of Christ, so it cannot just ‘be someone’.

Lastly, Christ will not return as He came into this world through the Incarnation - born into the flesh as an infant, raised, and then beginning His public ministry. This time, He will come in the full glory of His Resurrection and cast judgment upon the world. So again I stress to you that no one can just ‘become’ the Second Coming because the Second Coming is God, who alone has the power to defeat death, shatter the gates of Hell, judge mankind, and bring salvation.

 

[JoeytheItalian]

I did read your account and saw some insights into the situation of the world, but also some thoughts that are far from true prophecy as they go against the revelation of God in Christ and are contradictory to the teaching of His Church (this is THE key to discerning whether a prophecy is truly from God or not). What you may have experienced was a sudden exaltation of spirit, jumbled with your own usual patterns of thought as an agnostic - or something.

If you have a Catholic monastic community in your vicinity that could be a good resource for you for some spiritual direction.

While i agree somewhat with what your saying…who are you to say what prophecy is truly from god or not.

“The most important job is to share love.”

pretty sure going back to our core beliefs that the most important teaching from jesus was to love god, and love neighbor as self.

fyi.

 

[FCEGM]

While i agree somewhat with what your saying…who are you to say what prophecy is truly from god or not.

“The most important job is to share love.”

pretty sure going back to our core beliefs that the most important teaching from jesus was to love god, and love neighbor as self.

fyi.

Joey, one way any Catholic can discern true from false prophecy is by seeing whether or not what is claimed as prophetic is consonent with the teachings of the Church. In this instance when the “prophecy” speaks of the need to control population growth and says that “[w]hen you no longer have a contribution to make towards society, dying is the right thing to do” it’s not difficult for a Catholic to question its source.

 

[Vindictive]

@ FCEGM

So your contention is that somewhere in church teaching there is a statement that says upon discovering that you have no more to contribute in wisdom, faith, or action, life is to valuable to be given up regardless?

I would say that your fear of death prevents you from understanding the real value of life.

Death is only to be feared when you haven’t lived a fulfilled life of love as a part of god’s presence on earth… my implication by saying that dying is the right thing to do is NOT that suicide is the appropriate action, but that acceptance of god’s gift to mankind to come into his real and true presence is underrated. If you no longer have gifts to offer to the living that will bring them closer to god, then surrendering your life is not a fearful reaction to an existence that you find burdensome, but an exaltation of the full nature of creation.

Death is a natural consequence of life. Only someone who has failed to use life to exalt god need fear death. Those who have exalted god through life should look forward to death as the reward for a life well lived.

 

[Mumbles140]

@ FCEGM

So your contention is that somewhere in church teaching there is a statement that says upon discovering that you have no more to contribute in wisdom, faith, or action, life is to valuable to be given up regardless?

I would say that your fear of death prevents you from understanding the real value of life.

Death is only to be feared when you haven’t lived a fulfilled life of love as a part of god’s presence on earth… my implication by saying that dying is the right thing to do is NOT that suicide is the appropriate action, but that acceptance of god’s gift to mankind to come into his real and true presence is underrated. If you no longer have gifts to offer to the living that will bring them closer to god, then surrendering your life is not a fearful reaction to an existence that you find burdensome, but an exaltation of the full nature of creation.

Death is a natural consequence of life. Only someone who has failed to use life to exalt god need fear death. Those who have exalted god through life should look forward to death as the reward for a life well lived.

It is Church teaching that all life is sacred and should be preserved and protected from the moment of inception until natural death. The Catholic Church also directly teaches against euthanasia, which seems to be what you are implying. Speaking of which, I would like some more detail on that, please.

You say that those who ‘no longer have gifts to offer…’ should be willing to accept death, but what authority, then, would make the determination that someone is not making that contribution? And also, you focus your idea on gifts to help the living, but was man not created to serve God all the days of his life? As long as one continues to serve God and act in a manner pleasing to Him, that person is contributing to society.

Now following that line of logic, one could argue that those who cease to love God and stop serving Him could have their lives ended, but this goes against two very clear teachings of Christ Himself. First, let the one without sin cast the first stone, and secondly, that man can always repent up to the moment of death, so cutting that life short would be in contradiction to God’s will.

And I think you are somewhat harsh on people’s view of death. I think spiritually, most people are prepared for death, or at least should be (hence the importance of regular confession and penance). But there is a certain fear in the physical sense, not because man is afraid to face God, but there is a degree of uncertainty with the separation of the body from the soul. Add to that the separation from family and friends and it is easy to understand how, unless in cases of martyrdom or terminal illness, an immediate acceptance of instant death isn’t always easy.

 

[Vindictive]

Mumbles, I have to say you remind me of the story of Jesus and Pharisees in Matthew 12… so anxious to point out something wrong that you ignore what is right.

I used to do that a lot… snipe at other people because I thought they were being foolish… I figured something out. The sniping is a waste of your time and mine. No single human mind or even collection of minds is capable of encompassing all the truth behind god. Saying my interpretation is wrong is like saying the sun is dark. Yes… the sun is dark relative to some stars… but it is brighter than the darkness of space.

I’m schizophrenic. Or at least schizo-affective… the doctors aren’t sure yet… so yes, some of the things I’m saying aren’t making it all the way across the divide between reason and madness. But I can say that two very important ideas stick with me.

1. Loving each other is tremendously important.
2. Condemning each other for sin is ridiculous. Only god understands the relative importance of our actions and how they affect his plan. My obsession with porn may be more or less consequential to others salvation than someone else’s closeted homosexual acts… only god knows which is REALLY a greater impediment to the salvation of any soul.

Beyond that, we’re basically a bunch of monkeys throwing poop. We’re an incredibly stupid species; the thought that any of us, including the Catholic Church has managed to present an accurate interpretation of God’s being is only slightly less likely than me discovering how to build a zero-point energy generator using only the implements in my bathroom.

Not to mention the fact that the bible itself says that at the end of days there will be a great impostor… a false prophet. If god asked it of you, would you have the stomach to be the false prophet? To be the scape-goat of all sinners at the end of days?

 

[Mumbles140]

Mumbles, I have to say you remind me of the story of Jesus and Pharisees in Matthew 12… so anxious to point out something wrong that you ignore what is right.

I used to do that a lot… snipe at other people because I thought they were being foolish… I figured something out. The sniping is a waste of your time and mine. No single human mind or even collection of minds is capable of encompassing all the truth behind god. Saying my interpretation is wrong is like saying the sun is dark. Yes… the sun is dark relative to some stars… but it is brighter than the darkness of space.

I’m schizophrenic. Or at least schizo-affective… the doctors aren’t sure yet… so yes, some of the things I’m saying aren’t making it all the way across the divide between reason and madness. But I can say that two very important ideas stick with me.

1. Loving each other is tremendously important.
2. Condemning each other for sin is ridiculous. Only god understands the relative importance of our actions and how they affect his plan. My obsession with porn may be more or less consequential to others salvation than someone else’s closeted homosexual acts… only god knows which is REALLY a greater impediment to the salvation of any soul.

Beyond that, we’re basically a bunch of monkeys throwing poop. We’re an incredibly stupid species; the thought that any of us, including the Catholic Church has managed to present an accurate interpretation of God’s being is only slightly less likely than me discovering how to build a zero-point energy generator using only the implements in my bathroom.

Not to mention the fact that the bible itself says that at the end of days there will be a great impostor… a false prophet. If god asked it of you, would you have the stomach to be the false prophet? To be the scape-goat of all sinners at the end of days?

What I was pointing out was that your visions, though containing some valuable/truthful aspects, particularly about the care and love for each other, are not ‘prophetic’ in the eyes of the Church because they directly go against Church teaching. On the broad scheme of things, I was answering your question about the Church’s handling of prophetic occurences.

I did also ask you to clarify your point, and explained how, based on how I understood your statements, it contradicted with Church teaching, thus I was hoping you would delve more into it so I could determine if my interpretation was incorrect or not.

Have you actually been diagnosed with schizophrenia/schizoaffective disorder? Or is it something the doctors are currently examining as an explanation but haven’t settled that it is one of the two? Do you have medication? And were you declared schizophrenic before you began having your visions? If you don’t want to answer these questions due to medical privacy, I completely understand, but since you brought it up, I thought I would ask.

Also, the Catholic Church doesn’t claim to understand, nor really scratch the surface, of the being of God, but it does teach that God has made revelations to us about His Nature both through the teachings of Christ and other revelations made since then. That’s why we hold certain things as truths that we also hold to be mysteries. We believe in the Holy Trinity, but the Church does not try and explain how this is. People may try to use examples to help others ‘envision’ it, but that doesn’t declare what it is.

As for the false prophet, I personally do not believe God would ask someone to do it, just as God did not ask Judas to betray Christ. He knew it would happen, and it was necessary for the plan of salvation, but that doesn’t spare Judas from his sins, and that doesn’t mean Judas acted ‘for God’. Judas used his free will to do what he did, and God took advantage of that opportunity to save mankind.

 

[FCEGM]

@ FCEGM

So your contention is that somewhere in church teaching there is a statement that says upon discovering that you have no more to contribute in wisdom, faith, or action, life is to valuable to be given up regardless?

First, you did not originally qualify what you considered as “contributions” one may make to society nor did you explain just how one’s life would be ended within the scenario of being a non-contributor.

Second, - as “Mumbles” has already spoken of - the Church’s teaching is that all life is sacred, including the lives of those whom society deems as non-contributors, e.g., people with Down Syndrome whose lives in our day and age are more often than not ended before birth. It’s a very slippery slope (and our society has pretty much already reached the bottom of that slope) to a time when “authorities” will determine through the principle you extol just who is or isn’t a “contributor” and end the lives of those who don’t meet the standards they consider necessary for a life of value.

I would say that your fear of death prevents you from understanding the real value of life.

Well, this just demonstrates that you don’t know me - and just how prophetic you are.

Death is only to be feared when you haven’t lived a fulfilled life of love as a part of god’s presence on earth… my implication by saying that dying is the right thing to do is NOT that suicide is the appropriate action, but that acceptance of god’s gift to mankind to come into his real and true presence is underrated. If you no longer have gifts to offer to the living that will bring them closer to god, then surrendering your life is not a fearful reaction to an existence that you find burdensome, but an exaltation of the full nature of creation.

Our value and dignity as persons aren’t in what we have done or what we can do, but in who we ARE - children of God created in His image and likeness. Of course for those who know God and who have been conformed to Christ death is nothing to fear, but that doesn’t mean that we can impose on others (which is where your “prophecy” ultimately leads) or on ourselves the desire to die before the time God ordains. In reading the lives of the Saints we see that they often go through a stage where the desire to die and be with the Lord is very strong; but they have reached an even greater degree of sanctity when that desire leaves and they give themselves entirely into His hands - whether they live longer or die quickly is no concern for their one desire is to be conformed to His Holy Will.

 

[Vindictive]

I do apologize for being a bit jumpy. They have me on so many meds right now to keep my condition from “deteriorating” that I’m lucky I can spell my own name without taking a nap between first and last.

The doctors haven’t given me anything that resembles a real diagnosis… possibly because schizophreniform diagnoses are based entirely on patient behavior and not on something quantitative like bloodwork analyses. Short of taking a sample of the tissue in my brain (which I’m not going to volunteer for) they can’t say that I have schizophrenia or one of its variations until my symptoms become more pronounced and have occurred for a longer period of time. In other words, I’m waiting to go completely crazy.

The actual “delusional” episodes have ranged from 15 minutes to 8 hours. During the shorter episodes, it has been easier for me to keep track of where my thoughts go than during the first, extremely prolonged episode.

I should clarify that there is a clear deliniation between the thoughts that feel “external” to me and my attempts to follow the logical consequences of those thoughts; A seperation between what happened and what is me trying to figure out what just happened.

There is also a distinct difference between the way the thoughts progress naturally and what happens when I start thinking thoughts that frighten me.

To sound like a complete nutter… the voices in my head are telling me that its my responsibility to save the human race from itself by spreading a message of peace, love and enlightened stewardship of the environment and if I don’t, I’m going to burn in hell.

So… I have a messiah complex. The problem is that RATIONAL me agrees with a lot of the things CRAZY me is trying to say… but I’m not cut out to save the world. I only feel release when I try to write down the things that go through my head and then share them with others. Its a compulsion. I HAVE to share these thoughts with others and I have to try to convince people they are the truth, otherwise I feel like my heart is going to explode and I’m going to die having failed god and humanity both because I was afraid to try.

Of course, in my saner moments I sound absolutely batty to myself. Some of the things I write make no sense at all… but that happens when I’m fighting the compulsion instead of embracing it.

Right now I’m sitting here with the dilemma of “Do I take my meds and risk my immortal soul because god is trying to use me and the meds interfere… or is the whole thing a symptom of my broken brain.”

I am NOT in a happy place right now because of this conflict.

Imagine that someone handed you a check for millions of dollars (my “Truth”) and then said if you ever tried to cash it in, they would have you committed to a mental institution and you would never get out. You’re rich, but no-one else will never know it.

Thats the way I feel right now… like I finally figured out how the world is supposed to work out and I can try to fix the WHOLE WORLD and be called crazy or I can keep it to myself and live my life normally, but be condemned to hell because I didn’t do what I knew was the right thing… which is to share the message.

That conflict alone is enough to drive someone insane.

There are so many ideas that fly through my brain when I’m having an “episode” that are right and true and make sense morally, phillosophically and intellectually… but there are also things that are very clearly the result of me fighting against what the visions… voices… external presence… whatever you want to call it, is telling me. I’ve been told that I told horrible lies about people while I was struggling against the compulsion… things that would make oyu think I was possessed. I claimed that I raped my own mother and the like… which, to clarify, she denies fervently that it ever happened… but that was while I had been fighting against the compulsion. When I simply accepted it and let it use me, I was calm… peaceful…

Its hard to explain the sensations… the connections that were made. The thoughts inside MADE SENSE, but I couldn’t get them out of my mouth in a way that people around me could understand.

I need to stop before I push to hard and slip again, but I’ll try to come back and answer some more questions when I’m not so volatile.

 

[Vindictive]

As to the topic of when is the right time to die… I am not saying that people should act to take their own life through any means… I think (I’m not sure because it honestly isn’t something I would say on my own outside the episodes) that the intended meaning is that fear of death is irrational if you have lived your life according to god’s will. It has nothing to do with making the choice to act.

In other words, when the time of death comes to you, sometimes acceptance is a better choice than resistance. All of the modern techniques by which we extend a persons life aren’t necessarily a good thing. Sometimes, when the moment of death comes, the correct choice is to allow death to come naturally instead of resisting it.

Why I should care one way or the other is beyond me… but it seemed profoundly important at the time… and not in the context of suicide or euthanasia. It was more about internal things like “will” and “spirit” than about physical things like pulling the plug or eating a bullet.

 

[FCEGM]

V - This is such a difficult struggle you are in and words don’t suffice to express my concern for you. Please know that you are in my prayers. St. Dymphna, btw, would be a good patron for you to take as your own.

May the Lord grant wisdom to your doctors in their care for you.

 

[StevieD]

I had a friend who had an episode like yours, he was equally sure that his insights were from God, and to some extent they sounded quite reasonable but his were totally different from your own (somebody’s got to be wrong here!). I would sum up both of your ‘insights’ into a certainty that God has somehow lost control of the world and the Church and needs someone to point out the right path for humanity. He doesn’t actually need either my friend or you to do so, He set up a Church to do this very job and, although sometimes it seems that it may not be doing the job to some people, in the long run it is and we have Jesus’ word for it.
God Bless, take it easy.

 

[puzzleannie]

I
Tell me what you think. Help me understand what the hell is going on with me, because its terribly frightening in some ways, but I’m afraid NOT to say something, because if what I see is true, I HAVE to share it. Sounding crazy is part of my sacrifice to try to make sure as many people as possible hear what I have to say.

If there is an official church office on validating prophecy, I would love to hear from them. Someone, please help me.

the place to begin with any kind of spiritual experience for discernment is with one’s own pastor, confessor or spiritual director. btw the fact that somebody thought your experience warranted professional help in no way detracts from what may have indeed been a profound spiritual experience, but a priest rather than a psychologist is the one to help you discern the spiritual dimension.

 

[Vindictive]

Stevie: The “idea” that I get isn’t that God has lost control of anything… simply that the time has come for humanity to take control of its evolutionary destiny. The day of the final conflict is rapidly approaching and the wars of the end times will be the people who understand the necessity for God in their lives and want to co-operate for the beterment of the species as a whole against people who are driven by TRULY insane principles like avarice, and lust.

The feeling is that we are reaching the tipping point… but the story is older than judeau-christian tradition. The end is coming.

I’ve said before “I’ve been selling ‘The End is Nigh’ signs for years… but business has never been so good.” Its entirely possible that I am just crazy, but the sense is that I need to tell everyone to get their house in order because this time it is for real.

I’m an intelligent, articulate individual who isn’t real big on going to church because I don’t believe humans are capable of getting their brains around the whole truth of what god is… but I’ve always thought that at least as far as moral philosophy is concerned, the Catholic Church has a distinct advantage over most religions. At least Catholocisms teachings are consistently based on sound reasoning and logic. Natural moral philosophy appeals to me.

I disagree with the church’s implementation of certain value based judgements about sin that extend beyond the definition of sins as mortal or venial, and those differences are a result of human ideals becoming institutionalized in the strata of the church without divine guidance. The idea that sexual sins (homosexuality, masturbation, etc.) are of greater consequence than fibbing or petty theft has effected generations but it isn’t doctrine so much as a side affect of political responses to historic realities that have nothing to do with church teaching.

Oooohhh… I’m getting ranty again… better slow it down a notch.

Annie, unfortunately I haven’t gotten a response from either of the clergy whom I approached and I haven’t had a relationship with a pastor in a decade or longer… partially because of my own struggles with mental illness and partially because a number of the local clergy were demonstrably NOT acting appropriately in their role as priests for a few years. I suppose I should try again, but the first two attempts were pretty disheartening. Maybe its just not time for me to have a talk with someone in the church yet. Who knows?

 

[StevieD]

You obviously are intelligent and articulate, you express yourself very well. I am sorry if I got your ‘angle’ on things wrong.
The thing is individuals can change things but only in small but very important ways. If you went out with a flask and sandwiches and gave them to a tramp, you will have made a
greater impact on the world than by writing any amount of appeals to people in general. You will have made a difference. Could something like this be a way forward for you?

 

[Vindictive]

You obviously are intelligent and articulate, you express yourself very well. I am sorry if I got your ‘angle’ on things wrong.
The thing is individuals can change things but only in small but very important ways. If you went out with a flask and sandwiches and gave them to a tramp, you will have made a
greater impact on the world than by writing any amount of appeals to people in general. You will have made a difference. Could something like this be a way forward for you?

No need to apologize. I’m not offended or anything. Honestly, I don’t have an angle… or at least, I don’t want to. I’ve broken down in tears over this because I really only have 2 choices… I’m going crazy OR its my job to change the whole world. Given the option, which of those two would you pick?

My brain has always been my single most valued asset. If I had the choice between losing my mind and ANY physical disability, I would have chosen anything but this. I can work around physical limitations. If my brain is going bye-bye there really isn’t a prosthetc for that.

I don’t have any real gifts for art or music or anything… losing a hand or an eye would be alright. This is the one spot where I am really vane. My greatest pride has always been my reason. Now I have to give that up… I can’t trust my own mind anymore.

OR I have to let everyone believe I’m a complete whack job… give up my family and friends and become the new messenger of god with the story that humanity is killing itself off and we have to change “right effing now” or evil wins, and the grand experiment that is humanity vanishes without attaining god’s most sincere wish… that we all learn to love him and each other.

There is a whole time/space cosmology theme to what I refer to as round 2.

I’m trying to keep as accurrate a record of what I’m experiencing as possible in the hopes that it is valuable to someone for medical study in the event that I am just losing my mind. Maybe insight into my collapse will help future studies of schizophrenia and delusion patients. I really don’t know. I’m mostly just stuck on a bizarre joy-ride with my own brain running in circles. I’m afraid I’m eventually going to lose control and hurt someone if its simply madness. The doctors don’t seem that concerned about it though.

It literally would not be within my control if I reacted to a hallucination or the inner monologue making a bad decision while I’m experiencing my mental vacation, but so far I’ve been lucky and it has all been about love and peace and understanding of the universe.