How does the East feel about "Mediatrix" and "Co-redemptrix" Mariology?

[Mickey]

You see also to misunderstood the question: it is not about whether the ancestral sin causes death. This issue is not in dispute.

You are buying into Ghosty’s strawman. You can spin it anyway you like. Fr Azkoul, Fr Romanides and the Eastern Catholics who are referenced---- are in agreement that the consequences of ancestral sin are death, sin, and subjection to the passions.

Read them in context.

Note: Do I think that the IC innovation can be reconciled with Holy Orthodoxy? No.

 

[dvdjs]

You are buying into Ghosty’s strawman. You can spin it anyway you like. Fr Azkoul, Fr Romanides and the Eastern Catholics who are referenced---- are in agreement that the consequences of ancestral sin are death, sin, and subjection to the passions.

As I said, I am glad that you think this way, but I think that you are wrong about what the links say, and how most people interpret them. I have been having this discussion on line for many years. Your position on their writings is novel.

Note: Do I think that the IC innovation can be reconciled with Holy Orthodoxy? No

Posture noted.

 

[Ghosty]

Mickey: You seem to either be unable or unwilling to understand the point being made.

I think that they all make the point that ancestral sin has brought mortality (death) to the human race making us subject to sin and the passions.

This IS my point. The claim is that Adam’s sin makes us mortal, and our mortality leads us to sin. That is precisely what I’m saying is not supported by the Fathers.

Nobody is saying that death isn’t a result of Adam’s sin; the point in contention is whether or not it is mortality, as opposed to some other corruption, that leads to the passions.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Mickey]

I think that you are wrong about what the links say

Likewise.

 

[Mickey]

This IS my point. The claim is that Adam’s sin makes us mortal, and our mortality leads us to sin. That is precisely what I’m saying is not supported by the Fathers.

The consequences of ancestral sin are death and inclination to sin/passions. You refute this? Your posts are becoming confusing.

Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned. Rom 5:12

PS–Thanks for the link to the Fr Romanides article—it was superb!

 

[Vico]

Question: were there ever any graces before the Nativity of our Lord? If so, from where did these pre-Nativity graces come?

Surely the Blessed Virgin herself received graces before the Nativity (in addition to the upright among the Hebrews, for how else could they have been upright?). From where did these graces come?

Yes. God is the source of grace, the free and undeserved help to be partakers of eternal life. Yet, before Christ’s death, all that died went to Gehenna.

“Christ is risen from the dead, and to those in the tomb he granted life.”

As a result of the Holy Spirit we put on Christ through our acceptance of sanctification.

A creature cannot be channeling for all time, yet that is not what is intended in statements regarding her, rather source of all graces since the Assumption into Heaven.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Yet, before Christ’s death, all that died went to Gehenna.

Isn’t Gehenna the place of the damned? Sorry if I am coming in late into this topic but I thought even Israel delineated the place of the dead from the place of the damned.

 

[Adeodatus]

Prior to Christ, it wasn’t like this, I guess. But I believe the graces were still given because of the Cross, - since God is outside of time. I dont know if I’m right about this last point, I’m not a theologian.

Well, that’s the issue. Mary cannot be Mediatrix of all graces because she cannot mediate graces to herself, nor to those who existed before she existed, because she is a creature (unlike the Logos).

A creature cannot be channeling for all time, yet that is not what is intended in statements regarding her, rather source of all graces since the Assumption into Heaven.

OK. But what about the graces that the Blessed Virgin is currently receiving? Does she not require grace to be supplied even now? It seems that she cannot mediate those graces to herself.

 

[dvdjs]

The consequences of ancestral sin are death and inclination to sin/passions. You refute this? Your posts are becoming confusing. …

His posts are very clear; the issue is very clear. What you post in response has become just plain odd.

… the Fr Romanides article—it was superb

Very innovative.

 

[Mickey]

His posts are very clear;

I’m happy that it is so clear for you. I cannot understand his dilemma.

What you post in response has become just plain odd.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Very innovative.

The article is brilliant-----but you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Vico]

Isn’t Gehenna the place of the damned? Sorry if I am coming in late into this topic but I thought even Israel delineated the place of the dead from the place of the damned.

Oh!, right, what I should have said is Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek.

 

[dcointin]

I think that the best way to describe Orthodox belief is through a quotation of its liturgy and hymnography. The following hymn accurately summarizes our belief regarding the Holy Theotokos:

O Virgin Pure

by St. Nectarios
Plagal First Tone (Tone 5)
Refrain: Rejoice, O Bride Unwedded!

O Virgin pure, immaculate/ O Lady Theotokos
O Virgin Mother, Queen of all/ and fleece which is all dewy
More radiant than the rays of sun/ and higher than the heavens
Delight of virgin choruses/ superior to Angels.
Much brighter than the firmament/ and purer than the sun’s light
More holy than the multitude/ of all the heav’nly armies.
Rejoice, O Bride Unwedded!

O Ever Virgin Mary/ of all the world, the Lady
O bride all pure, immaculate/ O Lady Panagia
O Mary bride and Queen of all/ our cause of jubilation
Majestic maiden, Queen of all/ O our most holy Mother
More hon’rable than Cherubim/ beyond compare more glorious
than immaterial Seraphim/ and greater than angelic thrones.
Rejoice, O Bride Unwedded!

Rejoice, O song of Cherubim/ Rejoice, O hymn of angels
Rejoice, O ode of Seraphim/ the joy of the archangels
Rejoice, O peace and happiness/ the harbor of salvation
O sacred chamber of the Word/ flow’r of incorruption
Rejoice, delightful paradise/ of blessed life eternal
Rejoice, O wood and tree of life/ the fount of immortality.
Rejoice, O Bride Unwedded!

I supplicate you, Lady/ now do I call upon you
And I beseech you, Queen of all/ I beg of you your favor
Majestic maiden, spotless one/ O Lady Panagia
I call upon you fervently/ O sacred, hallowed temple
Assist me and deliver me/ protect me from the enemy
And make me an inheritor/ of blessed life eternal.