How is "tradition" for lay people like the spirituality of the religious?

[Megan7]

Some of these signs and symbols, both through liturgical action as well as vestment, go back to the third century. There has been much discussion already of the Fisherman’s Shoes (red shoes), but others such as the Dalmatic or the Pallium are great examples also.

If the Church has maintained a tradition of certain vestments and actions for over 1700 years, since early Patristic times, since the time of the First Council of Nicea; doesn’t it make some sense to take some time to understand why she has done so, before just stripping them away as supposedly extraneous or unnecessary?

Thank you.

 

[Cat]

Some of these signs and symbols, both through liturgical action as well as vestment, go back to the third century. There has been much discussion already of the Fisherman’s Shoes (red shoes), but others such as the Dalmatic or the Pallium are great examples also.

If the Church has maintained a tradition of certain vestments and actions for over 1700 years, since early Patristic times, since the time of the First Council of Nicea; doesn’t it make some sense to take some time to understand why she has done so, before just stripping them away as supposedly extraneous or unnecessary?

I’m not questioning “traditions” and I agree that they should not be eliminated. I do think that the Catholic Church needs to stop assuming that modern Americans actually understand and remember what all the signs and symbols mean

I think that every parish, EVERY parish, no matter how brilliant and wonderful and well-taught the catechesis program is, SHOULD have a pamphlet of the “explanation” of the Mass, along with a “legend” (such as what is seen on a map) of all the signs and symbols in their church building, nave, and sanctuary.

I think there should be thousands of copies of the pamphlet and legend, and they should be displayed in a very prominent place in the parish lobby, or even in the pews (although things tend to get taken or doodled on when they are in the pews).

OR–the church needs to display a VERY PROMINENT website address, perhaps right over the door before a person enters the nave, that a person can look up on their iPhone while they’re sitting in the pews and find the pamphlet/legend and read about the Mass and all the signs and symbols. It needs to be made clear that it is acceptable and OK and no one will frown upon them if they use their iPhone during the Mass to look up the Mass symbolism and the signs and symbols in their parish. (All the naysayers who don’t believe in using a computer during Mass need to back off so that people can learn using the modern methods that they are accustomed to use. It’s not irreverent or disrespectful for people to learn something during the Mass.)

Finally, the priests and deacons need to remind people at least once a month of the pamphlet and legend and website, and tell them to please review their traditions so that they will know and understand what’s going on in the Mass and in their church building. I would suggest that every month or maybe even every week, the priest and deacons also select one tradition, sign, or symbol, and specificially describe it to the people and remind them of the meaning. E.g., “Why do I pour the water into the wine before the Consecration?”

Those Catholics who do understand all the traditions need to stop assuming that all the other Catholics know and understand the traditions. They don’t. And if they were once taught the signs and symbols waaaaaay back when they were teenagers, they don’t remember them. I think a lot of people attend Mass in a fog, and have no clue about why they are doing the things they are doing (or not doing, in many cases).

When the New Translation of the Liturgy (OF) came out a year ago (a little more than a year), it was made very clear to all of us that we are supposed to bow at the time in the Creed when we say, “By the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man.”

In the pew cards with the translation, this instruction is highlighted in red. You can’t miss it. Problem is, people aren’t glued to the pew cards now, and so they aren’t reading them anymore.

I bow. The priest bows. A few people bow. But the vast majority do not. It is obvious that most people have forgotten the instruction to bow, and don’t understand the reason for the bow. Perhaps I remember it because I am a convert to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism, and I had a LOT of Bible studies and Sunday school classes over the years about the immense importance of the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus, and so I understand and appreciate the need to acknowledge this portion of the Creed with a physical gesture of respect and humility. But most Catholics have not sat through as many classes, seminars, Bible studies, and Sunday School classes as the Evangelical Protestants, so they don’t have this background.

We need to do PRACTICAL things to help Catholics remember and understand the traditions. We all know that if a “class” were offered, only about ten Catholics would show up, and they would be the Catholics in the parish who already understand all the traditions. So a class isn’t a practical means to explain traditions. I would say pamphlets and other print media, along with a good explanation on a website.

But after all this post, I must say that this is not my question. My question is about how traditions are like “spirituality”. That’s something that the OP stated that I have a hard time understanding.

 

[jwinch2]

I’m not questioning “traditions” and I agree that they should not be eliminated. I do think that the Catholic Church needs to stop assuming that modern Americans actually understand and remember what all the signs and symbols mean

I think that every parish, EVERY parish, no matter how brilliant and wonderful and well-taught the catechesis program is, SHOULD have a pamphlet of the “explanation” of the Mass, along with a “legend” (such as what is seen on a map) of all the signs and symbols in their church building, nave, and sanctuary.

I think there should be thousands of copies of the pamphlet and legend, and they should be displayed in a very prominent place in the parish lobby, or even in the pews (although things tend to get taken or doodled on when they are in the pews).

OR–the church needs to display a VERY PROMINENT website address, perhaps right over the door before a person enters the nave, that a person can look up on their iPhone while they’re sitting in the pews and find the pamphlet/legend and read about the Mass and all the signs and symbols. It needs to be made clear that it is acceptable and OK and no one will frown upon them if they use their iPhone during the Mass to look up the Mass symbolism and the signs and symbols in their parish. (All the naysayers who don’t believe in using a computer during Mass need to back off so that people can learn using the modern methods that they are accustomed to use. It’s not irreverent or disrespectful for people to learn something during the Mass.)

Finally, the priests and deacons need to remind people at least once a month of the pamphlet and legend and website, and tell them to please review their traditions so that they will know and understand what’s going on in the Mass and in their church building. I would suggest that every month or maybe even every week, the priest and deacons also select one tradition, sign, or symbol, and specificially describe it to the people and remind them of the meaning. E.g., “Why do I pour the water into the wine before the Consecration?”

Those Catholics who do understand all the traditions need to stop assuming that all the other Catholics know and understand the traditions. They don’t. And if they were once taught the signs and symbols waaaaaay back when they were teenagers, they don’t remember them. I think a lot of people attend Mass in a fog, and have no clue about why they are doing the things they are doing (or not doing, in many cases).

When the New Translation of the Liturgy (OF) came out a year ago (a little more than a year), it was made very clear to all of us that we are supposed to bow at the time in the Creed when we say, “By the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man.”

In the pew cards with the translation, this instruction is highlighted in red. You can’t miss it. Problem is, people aren’t glued to the pew cards now, and so they aren’t reading them anymore.

I bow. The priest bows. A few people bow. But the vast majority do not. It is obvious that most people have forgotten the instruction to bow, and don’t understand the reason for the bow. Perhaps I remember it because I am a convert to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism, and I had a LOT of Bible studies and Sunday school classes over the years about the immense importance of the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus, and so I understand and appreciate the need to acknowledge this portion of the Creed with a physical gesture of respect and humility. But most Catholics have not sat through as many classes, seminars, Bible studies, and Sunday School classes as the Evangelical Protestants, so they don’t have this background.

We need to do PRACTICAL things to help Catholics remember and understand the traditions. We all know that if a “class” were offered, only about ten Catholics would show up, and they would be the Catholics in the parish who already understand all the traditions. So a class isn’t a practical means to explain traditions. I would say pamphlets and other print media, along with a good explanation on a website.

But after all this post, I must say that this is not my question. My question is about how traditions are like “spirituality”. That’s something that the OP stated that I have a hard time understanding.

Agreed on pretty much everything you said above. Check post 14 for one person’s take on how this equates to spirituality.

Peace,

 

[jwinch2]

Orthopraxy and spirituality created and sustain each other.

As a cradle Catholic in my mid-twenties, I discovered the Latin Mass two years ago, and I can say, it has a different spirituality than the Ordinary Form. So much so that at times it actually *feels *like a different religion, IMO.

The way we worship really influence how we think about the truth of the faith. I came to the Latin Mass very well catechized by today’s standards, but I gradually found that because the Latin Mass expressed the same Truths differently, I understood them differently and lived them differently. My faith is now very different just from going to the TLM full-time for two years, after 25 years of going to the OF every Sunday.

I don’t prefer the TLM for being more beautiful. I’m not sure its more beautiful than a really ornate OF Mass at a major basilica when I once assisted. But it changed my worldview.

The two forms of the Roman rite offer a different worldview/spirituality to the worshipper that I am just not well-spoken, educated enough to explain, but I know it when I’m there.

If I lost access to the TLM, I would have to worship in an alien spirituality, probably like an Eastern Catholic would feel if he moved somewhere where only the Roman rite was found.

And it just permeates everything. The way my wife and I talk about the faith changed after a couple of years going to the Latin Mass. The way we practice charity changed. Everything feel into place in a new schema and it’s such a blessing.

We are plugging in to a continuously handed-down *way of living the Catholic Faith *that is like a fortress that nurtures our belief and understanding of the Church’s doctrinal and social teachings.

Many Catholics today seem to think that keeping the black and white of the catechism’s text the same is all that is necessary to preserve the Catholic Faith, but I think (and I got this opinion from the Church Fathers who clearly share it) that now only the teachings must be faithfully handed down intact, but just as importantly, the way of worshipping. Without the latter, the former falters and the Faith becomes off-base, losing touch with its roots.

I am just a layman, but that’s how I earnestly feel.

Good post.

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi.

Roughty (very roughly) translated: As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I’m not questioning “traditions” and I agree that they should not be eliminated. I do think that the Catholic Church needs to stop assuming that modern Americans actually understand and remember what all the signs and symbols mean

I think that every parish, EVERY parish, no matter how brilliant and wonderful and well-taught the catechesis program is, SHOULD have a pamphlet of the “explanation” of the Mass, along with a “legend” (such as what is seen on a map) of all the signs and symbols in their church building, nave, and sanctuary.

I think there should be thousands of copies of the pamphlet and legend, and they should be displayed in a very prominent place in the parish lobby, or even in the pews (although things tend to get taken or doodled on when they are in the pews).

OR–the church needs to display a VERY PROMINENT website address, perhaps right over the door before a person enters the nave, that a person can look up on their iPhone while they’re sitting in the pews and find the pamphlet/legend and read about the Mass and all the signs and symbols. It needs to be made clear that it is acceptable and OK and no one will frown upon them if they use their iPhone during the Mass to look up the Mass symbolism and the signs and symbols in their parish. (All the naysayers who don’t believe in using a computer during Mass need to back off so that people can learn using the modern methods that they are accustomed to use. It’s not irreverent or disrespectful for people to learn something during the Mass.)

Finally, the priests and deacons need to remind people at least once a month of the pamphlet and legend and website, and tell them to please review their traditions so that they will know and understand what’s going on in the Mass and in their church building. I would suggest that every month or maybe even every week, the priest and deacons also select one tradition, sign, or symbol, and specificially describe it to the people and remind them of the meaning. E.g., “Why do I pour the water into the wine before the Consecration?”

Those Catholics who do understand all the traditions need to stop assuming that all the other Catholics know and understand the traditions. They don’t. And if they were once taught the signs and symbols waaaaaay back when they were teenagers, they don’t remember them. I think a lot of people attend Mass in a fog, and have no clue about why they are doing the things they are doing (or not doing, in many cases).

When the New Translation of the Liturgy (OF) came out a year ago (a little more than a year), it was made very clear to all of us that we are supposed to bow at the time in the Creed when we say, “By the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man.”

In the pew cards with the translation, this instruction is highlighted in red. You can’t miss it. Problem is, people aren’t glued to the pew cards now, and so they aren’t reading them anymore.

I bow. The priest bows. A few people bow. But the vast majority do not. It is obvious that most people have forgotten the instruction to bow, and don’t understand the reason for the bow. Perhaps I remember it because I am a convert to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism, and I had a LOT of Bible studies and Sunday school classes over the years about the immense importance of the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus, and so I understand and appreciate the need to acknowledge this portion of the Creed with a physical gesture of respect and humility. But most Catholics have not sat through as many classes, seminars, Bible studies, and Sunday School classes as the Evangelical Protestants, so they don’t have this background.

We need to do PRACTICAL things to help Catholics remember and understand the traditions. We all know that if a “class” were offered, only about ten Catholics would show up, and they would be the Catholics in the parish who already understand all the traditions. So a class isn’t a practical means to explain traditions. I would say pamphlets and other print media, along with a good explanation on a website.

But after all this post, I must say that this is not my question. My question is about how traditions are like “spirituality”. That’s something that the OP stated that I have a hard time understanding.

I agree about having the pamphlets in the church. That is a good idea. We are reverts and I didn’t know for a long time what a lot of the things were inside the church and what is going on. I have learned and it has been interesting but I am sure there are a lot of people who don’t know.

As far as that OP question. Probably ask her what she meant because it isn’t very clear to me.

I can tell you what the traditions are for me spiritually, though, and that is they identify the One church. They say who we are as a Catholics and that it isn’t just about another denomination with different beliefs but it is about something that has been preserved since Jesus started the church. Yes, traditions have grown and changed but there have been those that have been for centuries and some not so long ago but still it means that we are not only part of the church today but they also make us part of the church of yesterday and part of the church of tomorrow. Kind of gives me that sense of communion of the saints.

Plus, in our traditions, IMHO, it is our spirit connecting with the Holy Spirit and that is how I feel the traditions of the church are spirituality because by keeping them we are worshiping God by showing our love for Him through keeping of them.

So, that is just me. Not trying to sound boastful or anything. Just why they mean so much to me and why they are so important. Probably didn’t say that very well, though.