How much doubt is acceptable at baptism?

[TrueLight]

In other words, at this point–not yet having gone through RCIA–I would fill comfortable and would feel that I was being honest reciting the creeds. If as Easter draws near, though, I’m still where I am now on this matter, would this not be enough? I understand this is something I’d likely sort out during RCIA, but I’m very curious now.

I would say if as Easter draws near, you still don’t believe the literal interpretation, I would put off the Baptism and continue to study and pray.

 

[Bookcat]

Christ is Risen! Historically… Truly…

Read from Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/urbi/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20090412_urbi-easter_en.html

Keep praying…

One needs to be able to profess the Faith…in the YES of Baptism.

Yes the grace will come to live it and know it more…but one should embrace the Faith before baptism… for one is to make the Profession …“Credo” …“I believe”…I profess the Catholic Faith…I give myself to Christ…

(one makes this profession before baptism…that is part of the rite…but by then…your world can look very different then it does now!) (and I will note there is a difference between a doubt and a difficulty (see CCC) …or even a temptation against Faith…I know of some who did struggle with such in the last days before Baptism (such temptations can come!)…but they gave their YES…and were baptized…and become great lights for the Church)

Jesus of Nazareth indeed is our hope…and in him …in his resurrection is true life.

 

[quiet52]

The RCIA process is more than learning about what we believe. It is deepening a relationship with the triune God. That requires prayer and knowledge.
My suggestion is to experience the process. If you are not sure by Easter who it is you have that relationship with, or don’t fully accept who He is, then it is okay to delay the sacraments.

 

[PJM]

=Jocko_VT;8225089]I’m considering starting RCIA classes. I’m very attracted to the Catholic Church. I agree with the values and ethics and believe in the efficacy of the sacraments and prayer.

However, my doubt about miracles, including the resurrection of Christ, is very deep. I see great spiritual meaning in the miracles, but doubt the literal historical reality of the resurrection and other miracles.

Does this prevent me from becoming Catholic? Is it not enough for me to submit to the Church on these matters and to set aside my doubts and incredulity as weaknesses of my faith that I will have to wrestle with with the help of the sacraments? Or, must I have at least a fairly strong intellectual certainty in the historical fact of the miracles before being baptized?

Thanks for any help.

***My dear friend in Christ… RCIA stands for “Rites of Iniation for Christian Adults” so I don’t think that is what you have in mind? These are mandatory formation and information classes for ALL who would like [or think they MIGHT like] to become members of the CC.

One cannot be a Christian without believing in at least the elementary Beliefs of Christianity. Christ in not only a religious figure; He is also an HISTORICAL figure. So unbeleif in Christ; is literaly, unbelief in God. …

Christ death was precisely to show His Power to RISE from the dead, affirming an AFTERLIFE as a REAL possibility. If Christ did not rise from the dead; how can we believe that we shall? [This is the very basis of Christian belief.]

The mutiple examples of Christ rising others from the dead, then empowering the apostles [Both Peter and Paul are credited with this in the Bible] are all affirmation of a AFTERLIFE.

This is NOT whimsical theroy. Consdier this:*

The Universe consist of BILLIONS of planests, stars and galaxies. BUT ONLY ONE, Earth can be PROVEN to support life forms as we know them.

On Planrt earth there are HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of living thuings…BUT ONLY ONE; Humanity has what is necessary to LOVE.

In order to love requires a mind, intellect, freewill and soul. Quantify for us your “freewill.”

What is it’s shapes, size, weight, color? You can’t because while their existence is proveable, they ARE like God: Spiritual Things.

Science tell us that “Like MUST come from Like.” So we can know that we do not inherit these things form our natural parents. No, they come from God.

WHY does God give us such powerful GIFTS? Read Isaiah 43: 7, 21… NOTICE the worrd “MIGHT?”… This is the precise reason for these gifts. That we MIGHT freely choose to [or NOT TO] know love and serve God. Either choice requies in an absolute sense an after life for reward or punishment. SPIRITAUL THINGS cannot not die or be killed; again precisely for the afterlife we choose.

God Bless you,
Pat**

 

[Colettine]

Keep on praying. Some of my early prayers were like another poster (and the child’s father in the gospel of Mark) “I believe, Lord help my unbelief”.

Other early prayers were: “Please give me the desire to want to know you. Because I don’t even have that.”

God loves an honest prayer. He knows you’re struggling. And the Inquiry period of the RCIA IS specifically designed for you to ask questions and seek better understanding. Before you enter the Catechumenate period, you’ll go to the Rite of Acceptance into the Order of Catechumens, at which time you’ll be asked: “what do you ask of God’s Church” and your reply will be “Faith”. “What does Faith offer you?” and your response: “Eternal Life”. “Are you prepared to begin this journey today under the guidance of Christ?”

The Rite book asks that to move from the Inquiry to the Catechumenate you have evidence of your beginning to turn away from sin, the fundamentals of Christian teaching have taken root, and that you are ready to accept the teachings of the gospel.

So, yes, do start RCIA. And keep on praying. And I’ll pray for you.

 

[gt8952b]

I think it is fair to say that you can (and should?) believe in the mysteries of the Catholic faith without necessarily understanding them, Consider the apostles and disciples when Christ first revealed that in order to obtain eternal life we must eat his flesh and drink his blood. Many walked away because they could not fathom the idea. When Jesus returned to the apostles and asked if they were going to leave as well, the reply was “Where are we to go? You have the words of everlasting life.”

I’m sure to some extent they didn’t understand what was to come, yet they accepted it. I have to believe there was some doubt. Think of Peter walking on the water, doubt entered his mind and he could no longer walk on the water. Think of the apostles in the upper room after the death of Christ, I think someone already mentioned Thomas. Doubt is part of human nature. The devil tempts us with doubt. But faith is overcomming doubt.

So you might ask yourself “do I believe despite my doubts?”

Good luck in your journey and God bless. I think your should definitely pursue the call you are receiving.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

“Misteries” of the Catholic Church is a misnomer; It is The Basic Beliefs to Become Catholic, like Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, Done by Christ Himself thriough the Priest. My recommendation is just attend Mass, and note how Biblical it seems: it Happens to be All Biblical, as you’ll find out in RCIA. RCIA is The Way to Discover Christ, and HIS Church, to see if you elect to Become Catholic at the Bishop before Easter. “Everyone Does”. Save the details about baptism, etc for Class. That is what RCIA is For, since before the Catacombs.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

I agree. (But you have not started RCIA yet right?) So maybe you will feel different after that. What is your take on the eucharist? I understand Catholics take that quite literally to be the blood and body of Christ. It’s not just that they like it, it’s that they actually believe it. Do you?

It’s Far Better to say the Eucharist Is Thwe Real Presence of Christ; undeniably so. “Is the Body and Blood of Christ” is something it took me decades to understand. There are enough Eucharistic Miracles, totally impossible, that have Proven The Eucharist Is the real Body and Blood. Search Eucharistic Miracles, or better wait for the refernces on Very Many Catholic Basics like it. Learn at RCIA; simple prayer now: “Lord, help me discover you, please”. The KISS Principal works for most intelligent people who have trouble understanding simple things :hey_bud::newidea:

 

[Jocko_VT]

However, my doubt about miracles, including the resurrection of Christ, is very deep.

Does this prevent me from becoming Catholic? Is it not enough for me to submit to the Church on these matters and to set aside my doubts and incredulity as weaknesses of my faith that I will have to wrestle with with the help of the sacraments?

Rereading Part One of the CCC, paragraph 37 cites Pius XII’s Humani Generis, which appears to get at where I’m coming from.

"2 …there are not a few obstacles to prevent reason from making efficient and fruitful use of its natural ability. The truths that have to do with God and the relations between God and men, completely surpass the sensible order and demand self-surrender and self-abnegation in order to be put into practice and to influence practical life. Now the human intellect, in gaining the knowledge of such truths is hampered both by the activity of the senses and the imagination, and by evil passions arising from original sin. Hence men easily persuade themselves in such matters that what they do not wish to believe is false or at least doubtful.

“4. Furthermore the human intelligence sometimes experiences difficulties in forming a judgment about the credibility of the Catholic faith, notwithstanding the many wonderful external signs God has given, which are sufficient to prove with certitude by the natural light of reason alone the divine origin of the Christian religion. For man can, whether from prejudice or passion or bad faith, refuse and resist not only the evidence of the external proofs that are available, but also the impulses of actual grace.”

I see what I’m offering as a concession that A) my “reason” is being blocked by various obstacles, and B) that my “intelligence” is experiencing difficulties… I’m conceding that my intellect is wrong, and that I currently lack the power to overcome this problem on my own. Furthermore, I feel like I’m offering “self-surrender and self-abnegation.” In making this concession, I’m setting aside disbelief, and conceding the truth the Church presents, despite my inability to see it clearly. I’m recognizing, to go on to CCC 38, that I’m “in need of being enlightened…not only about those things that exceed [my] understanding, but also 'about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason…” so that I can know them.

 

[PJM]

Doubt at Baptism is acceptable, but perhaps unwise?

***Doubt at Confirmation is not acceptable ***because this Sacrament establishes a personal Covenant with the Confirmed and their God. The Covenant is on the part of the one being “Confirned IN THE FAITH” is foundational on 1. Knowing what we profess and believe 2. Accepting it as truth EVEN if not completely understood. If One Affirms Believe the Holy Spirt can over time enlighten the intellect to these truths.

Whould one that is prudent invest in anything of GREAT VALUE thatthey had not checked out and found satisfactory.

Consider this Bible admonation:

Heb.6: 4 to 8 "“For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [Taught the truths of the CC] who have tasted the heavenly gift,[Catholic Holy Communion] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,[CONFIRMED] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [Been taught the Catholic Beleif of the Bible] *** if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. *** For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. [Received the sacramental Graces of these Sacraments] But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.” [Speaking of Hell as a REAL POSSIBILITY].

II in doubt one is better of to PRAY for inlightenment and postpone the decession until sure.

God Bles you,
Pat

 

[AntalKalnoky]

KISS works the best: Science Proves the Miraculous Jesus Christ returning to Life: [SIGN]The Shroud of Turin Science[/SIGN] website. There have been several Hour Programs on The Shroud Also: The Shroud is Impossible Miracle; No human could do. Many Totally proven indeputable Eucharistic Miracles. You don’t have to believe a lot of perhaps unlikellies.
Baptism is to Start you becoming Catholic/Christian.

 

[Angela77]

I think doubt right now is totally fine. That’s just the way it is. Everyone doubts some time or another. Even Mother Theresa did!
Plus, when you’re confirmed, you renew your baptismal vows. Maybe by then you’ll feel more sure.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Jocko_VT

However, my doubt about miracles, including the resurrection of Christ, is very deep.

Does this prevent me from becoming Catholic? Is it not enough for me to submit to the Church on these matters and to set aside my doubts and incredulity as weaknesses of my faith that I will have to wrestle with with the help of the sacraments?

Have you been through RCIA yet? If not these classes may dispel your doubts?

Consider these to things: The Terms “BC” Before Christ and “AD” Anno Domini [After Death] are used world wide. Christ is a HISTORICAL person in addition to being our God.

When one refuses to understand the Resurrection it effects EVERY OTHER Christian belief and the ENTIRE BIBLE. There is secular evidence of Christ as well as Church evidence.

Go to this site and read this PLEASE http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/doubt.htm

This HISTORICAL EVIDENCE

God Bless Pat

 

[TrueLight]

Doubt at Baptism is acceptable, but perhaps unwise?

***Doubt at Confirmation is not acceptable ***b

The only thing is, in most parishes, baptism and confirmation of adults tend to take place together at the Easter vigil, if I am not mistaken.

 

[RyanK]

Obviously, you’re in a deep search for truth and I can tell you right now, those who seek, find. You’d definitely make for an intense convert!

 

[PJM]

=TrueLight;8245402]The only thing is, in most parishes, baptism and confirmation of adults tend to take place together at the Easter vigil, if I am not mistaken.

Yes, You are correct. But that is an issue of convienance not policy.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Yes, You are correct. But that is an issue of convienance not policy.

God Bless,
Pat

That is not only convenience; it is the Policy of Bringing Adults into Full Catholicism, if the Bishop approves. The Bishop can delegate Confirmation authority upon the Pastor for the Classic Historic Easter Vigil Entrance into Full Catholicism.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

The only thing is, in most parishes, baptism and confirmation of adults tend to take place together at the Easter vigil, if I am not mistaken.

The Easter Vigil has been found The Ideal Time to become Full Catholic for at least 1800 years.

 

[Phemie]

Doubt at Baptism is acceptable, but perhaps unwise?

***Doubt at Confirmation is not acceptable ***because this Sacrament establishes a personal Covenant with the Confirmed and their God. The Covenant is on the part of the one being “Confirned IN THE FAITH” is foundational on 1. Knowing what we profess and believe 2. Accepting it as truth EVEN if not completely understood. If One Affirms Believe the Holy Spirt can over time enlighten the intellect to these truths.

Whould one that is prudent invest in anything of GREAT VALUE thatthey had not check
Pat

NO!

An adult who opts to be baptized does so because he/she believes. THAT’S when he makes the commitment. Confirmation is something done to us, not by us. It completes our Baptism and strengthen us to live & profess our faith.

The adult catechumen is baptized, confirmed and receives Communion in the same celebration, not for convenience’s sake but because in the decision to be baptized is the full commitment to Jesus and the Church.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

To the OP: I am in your same situation, but to what degree I don’t know. Here’s my two cents:

I think that if you truly want to believe in the Catholic faith (dogma, doctrine, catechism, etc.), and you vow to act accordingly, then the doubt you have, no matter how great, is insignificant.