How much of the Old Testament is actually historical?

[HarryStotle]

Gal 3:19-20 (good paraphrase) In fact, ANGELS GAVE THE LAW TO MOSES, and he gave it to the people. There is only ONE GOD, and the Law did NOT come directly from him.

This is actually consistent with the Law of Moses (Deuteronomy, the second law) being composed by Moses himself as part of the covenant between the people and God. The Law was what the people agreed to do to fulfill – in the way they thought they could – the terms of the covenant.

That is why Jesus said “Did not Moses give you the law?” (John 7:19)

Heb 2:2 the message announced through ANGELS [TO MOSES] proved true, and EVERY VIOLATION of the LAW and every act of disobedience was PUNISHED. (because the Law only promises a punishment, not life).

You added [TO MOSES]. It isn’t clear that the message announced through angels specifically referred to the Law of Moses.

Acts 7:53-54 You received THE LAW as transmitted by ANGELS…When they heard this, they were INFURIATED, and they GROUND THEIR TEETH AT HIM. (lets hope this isn’t a prophecy-type for some in this thread!)

Alternative translation (NRSVCE): "You are the ones that received the law as ordained by angels, and yet you have not kept it.”

“Ordain” means declare as official. It does not imply “originated from” or “proposed by.” This is consistent with Moses having constituted the Law and God through his angels having approved it. It doesn’t mean God composed or originated the Mosaic Law. He did, however, originate the Ten Commandments, the FIRST Law.

JOSEPHUS: “We have learned the noblest of OUR DOCTRINES and the HOLIEST of OUR LAWS [came to us] from THE ANGELS” -Josephus, Jewish Historian (70 AD)

Another interpolation by you: “[came to us]”. It isn’t very specific about which laws constitute “the holiest.” Josephus was an historian, not a Jewish theologian, so his opinions about what comprises “holiest” is not ‘gospel,’ so to speak. In any case, the “holiest” laws in the OT were the Ten Commandments written by the finger of God himself. The Mosaic or “second” law rank second in importance.

2 Cor 3:13 UNLIKE MOSES, we have NOTHING TO HIDE. Everything is OUT IN THE OPEN with us. HE COVERED HIS FACE with a VEIL so the children of Israel WOULDN’T NOTICE that the glory was FADING AWAY —and they DIDN’T NOTICE. (yikes! read between the lines!)

IS BELOW THE RESULT OF GODS COMMUNICATION WITH MOSES?

Rom 4:15 For The Law ALWAYS BRINGS PUNISHMENT on those who TRY to obey it.

Rom 7:7 …
Gal 3:10 …

Rom 7:13 …

All of this is consistent with the “children of Israel” having failed to live up to the terms of the covenant – as written by Moses – that they themselves agreed to.

It doesn’t prove that the God of the OT was not the God of the NT. It does prove that the people of the OT did not clearly or completely know God, although they had a relationship with him.

It certainly DOES NOT prove that it WAS NOT the true God who was communicating to the people of Israel and revealing something of his nature.

You haven’t made your case.

 

[HarryStotle]

Numbers 12:6-8 IF THERE IS A PROPHET AMONG YOU, I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a VISION; I speak to him in a DREAM. NOT SO with My servant Moses…I SPEAK WITH HIM FACE TO FACE… HE SEES THE FORM OF THE LORD.

You have this habit of including only aspects of the text which “prove” your case, but conveniently leave out other aspects which make us question it.

This is Numbers 12:5-8:

5 Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the entrance of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forward. 6 And he said, “Hear my words:

When there are prophets among you,
I the Lord make myself known to them in visions;
I speak to them in dreams.
7 Not so with my servant Moses;
he is entrusted with all my house.
8 With him I speak face to face— clearly, not in riddles;
and he beholds the form of the Lord.

First off, God is standing in “a pillar of cloud,” meaning he is not “face to face” with Miriam and Aaron. When God refers to how he SPEAKS to Moses, he DOES use the words “face to face,” but also specifically tells what he means by that phrase – i.e., “clearly, not in riddles.”

That does not imply Moses ever saw the actual face of God, it means God is completely open and candid when he speaks to Moses.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Lets get that straight first then we can get into the big deception.

Didn’t I already post all the verses?

There was nothing in the verses you posted about the NT contradicting the OT concerning Moses, as you claimed.

 

[HarryStotle]

Definitely NOT because the True God does NOT live in, or come from books. This is the major difference between the True God I believe in, and the strange gods of Judaism,

I would suggest that you watch Brant Pitre’s video on the significance of the Transfiguration event in the Gospels and how it relates to this question of seeing the face of God.

Loosely summarized, this is the case Brant Pitre presents:​

God shows up on mountains in the Old Testament. Where does the transfiguration of Jesus take place?

Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain apart, by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his clothes became dazzling white, such as no one on earth could bleach them. And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, who were talking with Jesus. Then Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” He did not know what to say, for they were terrified. Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, “This is my Son, the Beloved; listen to him!” Suddenly when they looked around, they saw no one with them any more, but only Jesus. As they were coming down the mountain, he ordered them to tell no one about what they had seen, until after the Son of Man had risen from the dead. So they kept the matter to themselves, questioning what this rising from the dead could mean.(Mark 9:2-10)

Sometimes people will think this is just a miracle where Jesus reveals something of his power. It is a miracle but it needs to be put into the context of the Old Testament.

Why are Moses and Elijah specifically chosen to appear with Jesus? Why not David or Abraham or Adam?

It may be because they represent the Law and Prophets, the two key elements of Old Testament Judaism, but there is more going on here because Elijah is not the first, main or only prophet.

The real connection is that Moses (Exodus 33-34) and Elijah (1 Kings 19) are the only two who receive theophanies on a mountain in the Old Testament. They are the only two who asked specifically to see God “face to face.” Both were denied in very similar circumstances.

Continued…

 

[HarryStotle]

Moses has his theophany on Mount Sinai. He said to the LORD: "Show me your glory.” The LORD puts Moses in a cleft of the rock and all the glory of the LORD ‘passes by.’ God does not allow Moses to see his face.

…he said, “you cannot see my face; for no one shall see me and live.” And the Lord continued, “See, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock; and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by; then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back; but my face shall not be seen.” (Ex 33:17-23)

Again in 1 Kings, Elijah also goes to Mount Horeb – which is the same Mount Sinai as Moses was on and the same mountain where Jesus is transfigured – and he too finds a cave. Elijah comes out to see the Lord but "he wraps his face in his mantle,” so he doesn’t see the LORD.

Why are both Moses and Elijah not permitted to see God’s face? These are both theophanies in a strict sense. These are God revealing himself, but neither Moses nor Elijah are permitted to actually see him.

What is going on?

At the transfiguration of Jesus, both Moses and Elijah – coincidentally – are finally permitted to see the face of the God they could not see in the Old Testament – the face of Jesus – because NOW THAT SAME GOD has become man. This is the answer to Moses’ prayer. “Let me see your glory.” At the time, God said, ”Not now.” But in Jesus, God has taken on a human face and both Moses and Elijah are permitted to see God face to face when they see the face of Jesus.

Moses and Elijah, who both longed to see it, but couldn’t, finally get the opportunity to receive what they longed for.

Who else got the opportunity? Jesus’ three most intimate companions. Peter, John and James.

This shows the connection between the New Testament and the Old Testament in a way that is difficult to deny.

 

[ajcstr]

Just saw this today…

http://www.newsweek.com/bible-creat...-man-not-true-claims-israeli-newspaper-695821