How serious is attending an "illicit" Mass to you?

[JuanCarlos]

You seem to have an obvious lack of understanding. THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE SSPX!!! Do the Old Catholics and American Catholic Church have valid Apostalic Suscession? Are their Masses valid? If they are , yet illicit, would you go? Yes or no?

Most of the time, most of the time, and no, because they are completely separated from the Catholic Church (and proud of it) and are heretics.

 

[Timothysis]

Fact #1: Rome says that SSPX Masses are illicit.
Fact #2: Rome says that it is not always a sin to attend SSPX Masses.
Conclusion: Rome says that it is not always a sin to attend illicit Masses.

Rome has never said that it is not “always a sin” to attend sspx Masses. If something is not “always” a sin, that would mean that it is “sometimes” a sin. Rome would never say that it is sometimes ok to sin. The Catechism says that masturbation is “gravely disordered,” though the person who does can have a lessened degree of guilt due to underlying factors. It does not say that it is “ok” to masturbate.

You’re also trying to draw some distinction between illicit SSPX Masses and illicit diocesan Masses, but there’s no difference. Illicit is illicit. If Catholics are absolutely prohibited from attending illicit Masses as you falsely claim, that prohibition must apply to both cases.

There is no such thing as “illicit diocesan Masses!” If the bishop has no restraints, then his Masses are licit. Illicit abuses in a Mass DOES NOT MAKE THE MASS INVALID!!!

Does Ecclesia Dei say that it’s a sin to attend an SSPX or other illicit Mass? No.

“…a Commission is instituted whose task it will be to collaborate with the bishops…” Ecclesia Dei

And what did that commission say?

“It is precisely because of this schismatic mentality that this Pontifical Commission has consistently discouraged the faithful from attending Masses celebrated under the aegis of the Society of St. Pius X.”

Now, did they say "don’t go to sspx Masses? No. But they discourage it, based on the Popes Encyclical.

If you were a father and your son did something that you “consistently discouraged,” would you be fine if he did it anyway???

Does canon law say that it’s a sin to attend an SSPX or other illicit Mass? No.

But Canon law does regard such Masses as illegal. Tell me, when one serves the Church, don’t they also serve Christ???

You say that a Pontifical Commission created by Pope John Paul II himself should be ignored because it’s “just an opinion.” So why in the heck would the opinion of a CA apologist have more weight than that

I say no such thing. In fact, the pontifical commission created by Pope John Paul II has “consistenly discouraged” attending said Masses. Get your facts straight.

I’ll ask one more time-- where does any canon law or church document prohibit Catholics from attending illicit Masses? And why do you reject the Ecclesia Dei Commission created by JPII?

If something is illicit, then it is “not allowed” by the Church. There are no “church police” to shut it down; it is left up to the properly (or improperly) formed conscience of the individual. And the Ecclesia Dei Commission created by JPII has stated that they “CONSISTENTLY DISCOURAGE” attendance at sspx Masses! Why do YOU reject what they say?!?!?

 

[Timothysis]

Most of the time, most of the time, and no, because they are completely separated from the Catholic Church (and proud of it) and are heretics.

Great. Thanks for the answer…it was a bit of a roundabout way of getting at it, though…

 

[BrendanD]

Rome has never said that it is not “always a sin” to attend sspx Masses.

Rome said very clearly and specifically that it is not always a sin to attend the SSPX. The quote has been posted here about 10 times. You have quoted from the document yourself.

If something is not “always” a sin, that would mean that it is “sometimes” a sin. Rome would never say that it is sometimes ok to sin.

Going to the SSPX is only a sin if one goes for sinful reasons. Hence, it is not always a sin. This does not mean that it is sometimes ok to sin; it means that sometimes the action of going to the SSPX is a sin, and sometimes it is not.

It is a sin to miss Mass. But it is not a sin to miss Mass if you’re sick. This does not mean that it’s ok to sin when you’re sick; it means that the action itself is only sometimes sinful.

The Catechism says that masturbation is “gravely disordered,” though the person who does can have a lessened degree of guilt due to underlying factors. It does not say that it is “ok” to masturbate.

What are you trying to get at by comparing the SSPX to masturbation, contraception, murderers, Old Catholics, etc

The Ecclesia Dei Commission, created by Pope John Paul II, didn’t say “you can have a lessened degree of guilt for the sin of going to the SSPX.” It said, “you commit no sin by going to the SSPX for devotion the traditional Mass.”

There is no such thing as “illicit diocesan Masses!”

Do you not agree with Jimmy Akin that using illicit matter for the consecration renders the celebration illicit?
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9905chap.asp

Illicit abuses in a Mass DOES NOT MAKE THE MASS INVALID!!!

Nobody said anything about invalid Masses. That’s totally different from illicit. The SSPX never celebrate invalid Masses.

Now, did they say "don’t go to sspx Masses? No. But they discourage it, based on the Popes Encyclical.

Everyone is aware that the Commission discourages going to the SSPX, as I pointed that out several times in my original posts. The Commission also said that it is not necessarily a sin to go, and that you may fulfill your Sunday obligation by going there, and that you may donate money to them.

You ignore the parts of the Ecclesia Dei letters that you don’t like as “personal opinions”, but you quote other parts of the very same letters as authoritative It just doesn’t make sense.

If you were a father and your son did something that you “consistently discouraged,” would you be fine if he did it anyway???

More irrelevance…whether Rome discourages attendance of the SSPX has nothing to do with whether it a sin to disobey their suggestion. Rome makes lots of suggestions that we aren’t morally bound to follow.

But Canon law does regard such Masses as illegal.

You’re using the word “illegal” for dramatic effect. Why not just say “illicit”, which is the correct term.

I say no such thing. In fact, the pontifical commission created by Pope John Paul II has “consistenly discouraged” attending said Masses. Get your facts straight.

I explained in my original posts on the subject that the Commission discourages attending the Masses. I also explained that it is not a sin to choose to attend anyway.

If something is illicit, then it is “not allowed” by the Church. There are no “church police” to shut it down; it is left up to the properly (or improperly) formed conscience of the individual. And the Ecclesia Dei Commission created by JPII has stated that they “CONSISTENTLY DISCOURAGE” attendance at sspx Masses! Why do YOU reject what they say?!?!?

I can only explain the same thing so many times-- they discourage attending the SSPX, but that does not make it a sin. They said specifically that it is not a sin. It is you who picks and chooses which parts of the Commission’s teachings you want to accept.

Honestly, it seems like you’re just trying to change the subject to avoid talking about your original claims that it is a sin to attend illicit/SSPX Masses. Are you ever going to quote the law or church document that prohibits Catholics from attending illicit Masses?

 

[Timothysis]

Rome said very clearly and specifically that it is not always a sin to attend the SSPX. The quote has been posted here about 10 times. You have quoted from the document yourself.

Going to the SSPX is only a sin if one goes for sinful reasons. Hence, it is not always a sin. This does not mean that it is sometimes ok to sin; it means that sometimes the action of going to the SSPX is a sin, and sometimes it is not.

It is a sin to miss Mass. But it is not a sin to miss Mass if you’re sick. This does not mean that it’s ok to sin when you’re sick; it means that the action itself is only sometimes sinful.

What are you trying to get at by comparing the SSPX to masturbation, contraception, murderers, Old Catholics, etc

The Ecclesia Dei Commission, created by Pope John Paul II, didn’t say “you can have a lessened degree of guilt for the sin of going to the SSPX.” It said, “you commit no sin by going to the SSPX for devotion the traditional Mass.”

Do you not agree with Jimmy Akin that using illicit matter for the consecration renders the celebration illicit?
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9905chap.asp

Nobody said anything about invalid Masses. That’s totally different from illicit. The SSPX never celebrate invalid Masses.

Everyone is aware that the Commission discourages going to the SSPX, as I pointed that out several times in my original posts. The Commission also said that it is not necessarily a sin to go, and that you may fulfill your Sunday obligation by going there, and that you may donate money to them.

You ignore the parts of the Ecclesia Dei letters that you don’t like as “personal opinions”, but you quote other parts of the very same letters as authoritative It just doesn’t make sense.

More irrelevance…whether Rome discourages attendance of the SSPX has nothing to do with whether it a sin to disobey their suggestion. Rome makes lots of suggestions that we aren’t morally bound to follow.

You’re using the word “illegal” for dramatic effect. Why not just say “illicit”, which is the correct term.

I explained in my original posts on the subject that the Commission discourages attending the Masses. I also explained that it is not a sin to choose to attend anyway.

I can only explain the same thing so many times-- they discourage attending the SSPX, but that does not make it a sin. They said specifically that it is not a sin. It is you who picks and chooses which parts of the Commission’s teachings you want to accept.

Honestly, it seems like you’re just trying to change the subject to avoid talking about your original claims that it is a sin to attend illicit/SSPX Masses. Are you ever going to quote the law or church document that prohibits Catholics from attending illicit Masses?

Goodbye.

 

[palmas85]

The Church says that it is a “grave offence” to participate in celebrations by suspended clergy who perform illicit sacraments. Do you need a personal letter telling you that it’s not okey dokey to participate?

That is a very loose paraphrase of what the Church says. If you don’t really care what the position of the Church is, then why do you even worry about it?

I will ask you, too, once more; how serious is attending an “illicit” Mass to you???

This is what** you posted** you. What does it say?.

**As for the legitimacy of attending sspx Masses, the Church, in her generosity, has said that it is ok to attend these Masses out of love for the traditional rite but NOT out of support for the society. A warning was also made that frequent attendance at sspx chapels can create a sympathetic attitude for the “schismatic acts” (to quote Pope John Paul II) of the society over time, and that that can become a dangerous situation.
**

In that statement, posted by you, you you:thumbsup:

It says that the faithful may attend but not out of support for the SSPX.

**YOU POSTED THIS. **

So either the Church is saying it is all right or it is not. It seems very clear to me, but then again I know how read and comprehend things.

If I go to show my support for the SSPX

IT IS WRONG AND I MAY VERY WELL BE SINNING BY DOING SO

If I go because of my love of the Traditional Mass

IT IS OK WITH THE CHURCH THAT I DO SO

With the caveat that I don’t attend regularly and be careful.

THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS.

Where do you get anything else out of it?

 

[Timothysis]

This is what** you posted** you. What does it say?.

**As for the legitimacy of attending sspx Masses, the Church, in her generosity, has said that it is ok to attend these Masses out of love for the traditional rite but NOT out of support for the society. A warning was also made that frequent attendance at sspx chapels can create a sympathetic attitude for the “schismatic acts” (to quote Pope John Paul II) of the society over time, and that that can become a dangerous situation.
**

In that statement, posted by you, you you:thumbsup:

It says that the faithful may attend but not out of support for the SSPX.

**YOU POSTED THIS. **

So either the Church is saying it is all right or it is not. It seems very clear to me, but then again I know how read and comprehend things.

If I go to show my support for the SSPX

IT IS WRONG AND I MAY VERY WELL BE SINNING BY DOING SO

If I go because of my love of the Traditional Mass

IT IS OK WITH THE CHURCH THAT I DO SO

With the caveat that I don’t attend regularly and be careful.

THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS.

Where do you get anything else out of it?

But tell me, isn’t going to an sspx Mass on a consistent basis (not meaning you) lending support? And what if you give money for their material support? If you don’t attend regularly for these reasons, why in the world would you go at all???

 

[Jo_Benedict]

Note:

This thread is closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.