How should I respond to this argument used by Protestants by asking what's the difference between worship and veneration?

[CatholicTitan]

This was sent by one of my Protestant friend

"The simplest definition of worship is to “ascribe worth.” Worship can be more completely defined as “showing respect, love, reverence, or adoration.” Based on the dictionary, no clear difference between veneration and worship exists. In fact, veneration and worship are often used as synonyms for each other.

The Catholic Church has different degrees of worship: dulia, hyper dulia, and latria. Dulia is the honor given to the saints. Hyper dulia is the honor given to Mary alone, as the greatest of the saints. Latria is the honor given to God alone. In contrast, the Bible always ascribes honor, in the context of worship, to God alone ([1 Chronicles 29:11]; [1 Timothy 1:17] [6:16] [Revelation 4:11] Even if there were biblical support for different levels of worship, there still would be no biblical support for offering lower/lesser levels of worship to anyone other than God.

Only God is worthy of worship, adoration, praise ([Nehemiah 9:6][Revelation 4:11]); [15:4], and veneration, no matter how it is defined. Mary’s worth comes from the fact that God choose her for a glorious role and saved her from her sins through the death of Jesus Christ ([Luke 1:47]). The saints’ worth comes from the fact that God saved them, transformed them, and then used them in mighty and amazing ways. May we all, with Mary and the saints, fall on our knees and worship the only One who is worthy.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I would argue that the given definition for worship is incorrect. Worship is specifically directed towards deity. Anything else is less than worship. This definition is made up to create a problem where none exists.

We do not worship the saints, we honor them for their role in history, and for the holy lives they lived, or the holy way they died.

We agree with them, only God is worthy of worship. We have no issues with that statement. Where we take issue is where they claim we should not acknowledge the holiness of the saints, or the role they play (as shown in the Books of Revelation and Tobit) in interceding for us to our Lord.

 

[ascetic]

I would argue that the given definition for worship is incorrect. Worship is specifically directed towards deity. Anything else is less than worship. This definition is made up to create a problem where none exists.

Amen.

You may also want to point out to him that none of the verses he cites preclude veneration. They only speak of glorifying God. Rev 15:4 comes the closest to the task he’s using it for, but nobody has ever said our Lady was holy.

 

[commenter]

You might ask them to describe what was the manner in which people in the Bible related to Angels who turned up. Not exactly worship but not exactly a handshake either.

Protestantism tends to have a lot of “either-or”, Catholicism has intermediary degrees.

 

[Geo17]

IMO you can’t win the argument so a wise man won’t try, just smile stay silent and perhaps say Maybe we can agree to disagree. At least then you can remain friends.

 

[Geo17]

Not a good idea. In the Bible people bowed down to angels but then the angels told them to get up because they (the angels) are servants of the same God we are.

 

[Edward_H]

As them what’s the difference between rendering respect to our parents…“honoring our parents” and adoring God.

Holding people in high regard and respect is not adoration.

Is standing when a woman enters the room a sign of adoration?

The time these people waste.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

The Catholic Church has different degrees of worship: dulia, hyper dulia, and latria. Dulia is the honor given to the saints. Hyper dulia is the honor given to Mary alone, as the greatest of the saints. Latria is the honor given to God alone.

step by step. First find out where this is from, is it an exact quote. who said it and it what context.

 

[MT1926]

"The simplest definition of worship is to “ascribe worth.”

I ascribe worth to my children every day, that doesn’t mean I worship them. Heck I even ascribe worth to my cats. No one else is worthy enough of taking care of the mice in the barn?

Worship can be more completely defined as “showing respect, love, reverence, or adoration.”

I’m not sure if your friend is married or not but if he is I have some advice for him.

DO NOT worship your wife.

However, if he wants to remain married he better…

respect (treat her with high favor or special regard)
love (strong affection for her arising out of kinship and personal ties)
reverence (honor her above himself)
adoration (show her great affection and commitment)

In fact, veneration and worship are often used as synonyms for each other.

That’s why in this day and age we shouldn’t judge others without fully understanding the context. Just because he used veneration and worship as synonyms, in his personal context, doesn’t mean everyone else is using them in the same context.

The number one definition of veneration (Merriam-Webster) is respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person.

Worship is to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power.

Just because your friend is incapable of seeing any difference between these two definitions doesn’t mean we need to lower our own level of vocabulary understanding.

Only God is worthy of worship, adoration, praise ([Nehemiah 9:6][Revelation 4:11]); [15:4], and veneration, no matter how it is defined

I feel sorry for his wife and children. It must be hard on them never being adored or praised (as he says "no matter how it is defined).

Mary’s worth comes from the fact that God choose her for a glorious role and saved her from her sins through the death of Jesus Christ ([Luke 1:47]).

Amen (Although let me add choose her to freely choose, He didn’t force her)

The saints’ worth comes from the fact that God saved them, transformed them, and then used them in mighty and amazing ways

Amen (I’d be curious to ask your friend what he believes God is “USING” the Saints for?)

May we all, with Mary and the saints, fall on our knees and worship the only One who is worthy.

This one just confused the heck out of me. Isn’t he against us worshiping God WITH Mary and the Saints?

Unless you can get him to discuss how these words can be used in context my guess is you will get no where with this.

Most likely if you point out some of what has been said here his response will most likely be…

Oh yeah well where is Purgatory in the Bible…

Good Luck

God Bless

 

[greenrangerx]

The semantic ranges of words are different in different languages. While in the English language, your friend may have a case, that is not so in other languages. It’s similar to the limitations of the English word “love.” Other languages have multiple words describing different types of love, while English just has the one.

 

[Augustinian]

The semantic ranges of words are different in different languages. While in the English language, your friend may have a case, that is not so in other languages. It’s similar to the limitations of the English word “love.” Other languages have multiple words describing different types of love, while English just has the one.

This is exactly right. There is a difference between the love that a man has for football, or his wife or his God.
Even though its the same word “love”.

On the same point, “worship” doesn’t have the same connotation, depending on its context. I don’t think that lodge members think that their elected leader is God, even though they sometimes refer to him as “worshipful”

 

[Francis]

@CatholicTitan

1 Timothy 6:2 Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church;rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved.Teach and urge these duties. 3 Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, 4 is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, 5 and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

5 Facts to Ignore Before Accusing Catholics of "Mary Worship"

I love the Blessed Mother! There…I said it and I’m glad I did! As a Catholic, I’m so blessed to be a member of the Church that truly honors and respects the Mother of my Lord and Savior. I must admit that, even though I’m a cradle Catholic, I didn’t always feel this way. In […]

catholicexchange.com

5 Facts to Ignore Before Accusing Catholics of “Mary Worship”​

https://www.catholicgentleman.net/2015/01/devil-hates-blessed-virgin-much-love/

Veneration of Saints

Jos 5:14 – Joshua fell prostrate in worship before angel

Dan 8:17 – Daniel fell prostrate in terror before Gabriel

Tob 12:16 – Tobiah & Tobit fall to ground before Raphael

Mt 18:10 – angels in heaven always behold face of God (we venerate angels because of their great dignity, which comes form their union with God. Saints also are united with God)

1Jn 3:2 – we shall be like him, we shall see him as he is

1Thess 1:5-8 – you become an example to all the believers

Heb 13:7 – remember leaders, consider/imitate their faith & life

Psalms 8:4 what are human beings that you are mindful of them,mortals that you care for them?5 Yet you have made them a little lower than God( angles),and crowned them with glory and honor.
Philippians 2:4 Let each of you look not to your own interests, but to the interests of others. 5 Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus,6 who, though he was in the form of God,did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,7 but emptied himself,taking the form of a slave,being born in human likeness.And being found in human form,8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross.9 Therefore God also highly exalted himand gave him the name that is above every name,10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus elevated the dignity of humans from below Angle as mentioned in Ps 8 to that of and companions or helper as in Revelation 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your comrades who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”Revelation 22:9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your comrades the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”