How to Answer a Theist?

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My friend believes in a god but not the Trinity of the Catholic Church.
He considers living righteous the only way to be.
He thinks what Jesus said about salvation being nonsense.
We debate and talk.
However I wasn’t sure how to answer this question.

We were discussing how is it right or wrong for there to be eternal punishment? I said that this is because of sin and if a person turns away from God.

His answer is that faith is meaningless. He says one of the reasons why is how can god punish someone for eternity if man is tainted. He made an example that we can’t blame a lame man for not being able to walk if he was born that way, as it is not his fault that he is this way.

This also made me think about unbaptized children and that it is possible they might not be in heaven (limbo for infants???). Same logic of his would apply. How can infant’s judgement be justified if technically the child did nothing wrong because the infant can’t do anything?
 
=Kmon23;11856887]My friend believes in a god but not the Trinity of the Catholic Church.
He considers living righteous the only way to be.
He thinks what Jesus said about salvation being nonsense.
We debate and talk.
However I wasn’t sure how to answer this question.
Click to expand...
We were discussing how is it right or wrong for there to be eternal punishment? I said that this is because of sin and if a person turns away from God.
Click to expand...
His answer is that faith is meaningless. He says one of the reasons why is how can god punish someone for eternity if man is tainted. He made an example that we can’t blame a lame man for not being able to walk if he was born that way, as it is not his fault that he is this way.
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This also made me think about unbaptized children and that it is possible they might not be in heaven (limbo for infants???). Same logic of his would apply. How can infant’s judgement be justified if technically the child did nothing wrong because the infant can’t do anything?
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Consiser trying this:

He beliefs in “One God” right?

SO DOES NOT GOD HAVE THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE WHAT HE IS EVEN IF WE ARE UNABLE TO COMPREHEND IT?🤷

Isaiah 55: 6-11 "Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. [7] Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive. F**or my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts. ** And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it

Mt. 3: 16-17 "And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water [GOD THE SON]: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, [GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT] and coming upon him. And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.[GOD THE FATHER]

Mt. 28: 16-20 “And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19***] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost*. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world”.

God Bless you;
The question on infants ought to be a seperate thread 👍

Patrick
 
Kmon23 said:
We were discussing how is it right or wrong for there to be eternal punishment? I said that this is because of sin and if a person turns away from God.
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God does not condemn a person to eternal punishment so much as allows him to choose his outcome by choosing his behavior. As we make these choices we move either closer to God or further away. Ultimately the persons who expressed that they did not choose God receive exactly what they lived- an eternity ourside of the presence of God. Their choice. Those who expressed their choice to follow Christ also receive the result of their choice- an eternal future with God.

The Eternity of Hell
“Just as God must appoint some fixed term for the time of trial, after which the just will enter into the secure possession of a happiness that can never again be lost in all eternity, so it is likewise appropriate that after the expiration of that term the wicked will be cut off from all hope of conversion and happiness. For the malice of men cannot compel God to prolong the appointed time of probation and to grant them again and again, without end, the power of deciding their lot for eternity. Any obligation to act in this manner would be unworthy of God, because it would make Him dependent on the caprice of human malice, would rob His threats in great part of their efficacy, and would offer the amplest scope and the strongest incentive to human presumption. God has actually appointed the end of this present life, or the moment of death, as the term of man’s probation. For in that moment there takes place in our life an essential and momentous change; from the state of union with the body the soul passes into a life apart. No other sharply defined instant of our life is of like importance. Hence we must conclude that death is the end of our probation; for it is meet that our trial should terminate at a moment of our existence so prominent and significant as to be easily perceived by every man.”
newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

As far as limbo is concerned, the understanding of the Church has changed on this topic. In 2007, this revised view was delivered. Among other things it says:

Rather, there are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible to do for them that what would have been most desirable— to baptize them in the faith of the Church and incorporate them visibly into the Body of Christ.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
 
One of my theology teachers made a good point, it goes like this:

A man sets out two flavors of ice cream on a table for his son to choose.

One is vanilla, the other is strawberry.

The man knows for a fact that his son loves strawberry and will pick strawberry.

But at the same time, the man still gives his son the option of choosing which flavor to pick!

God loves us, that’s why he gave us free will, so that we can choose to love him, we wouldn’t be able to truly love God if we were forced against our own free will to do so. God gives us the choice even though he knows what we will choose.

PS: Capitalize God when you are referring to him!👍
 
I know a lot of theist’s and your friend(?) sounds quite angry. I would not question what others have said but quoting scripture to them may not work. At the moment , they have made up their mind.

reading what the others have said , however will help you and me talk to other theist’s who have more of an open mind. If this person believe in God, that is a good start.

I will pray for all who believe to take that next step through the fear , into the darkness and hopefully, they enter into the light, whatever that is but one step closer to God I pray

You might ask why or where is all the anger coming from because there obviously is.
sierradepadrre:shrug:
 
The soul is eternal. So when we die our soul goes “somewhere”. If we reject God, then we cannot be with Him. So we go to the other place - hell. God does not put us there. We put ourselves there.

Think of an Atheist who has no belief in God. Even if he were taken to Heaven he would not want to be there because he does not believe in the existence of God. So there is only one place that he will have to go and since his soul is eternal it will be there for eternity.
 
sierradepadre said:
I know a lot of theist’s and your friend(?) sounds quite angry. I would not question what others have said but quoting scripture to them may not work. At the moment , they have made up their mind.

reading what the others have said , however will help you and me talk to other theist’s who have more of an open mind. If this person believe in God, that is a good start.

I will pray for all who believe to take that next step through the fear , into the darkness and hopefully, they enter into the light, whatever that is but one step closer to God I pray

You might ask why or where is all the anger coming from because there obviously is.
sierradepadrre:shrug:
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I wouldn’t say he’s angry or anything. His actions are generally good. Intellectually and in his beliefs, he has a strong belief in his philosophy and logic. It just so happens that in his philosophy and logic, he was able to conclude that God of the Trinity in Catholicism isn’t the true God. He believes in a god (he read Descartes proof/logic for the existence of God), it’s just that he doesn’t believe in the God pictured in Catholicism/Christianity. He considers the idea of faith to be silly, and that it is how we live our lives (in action/behavior/morality) alone that constitutes what should be our salvation.
 
johnnyt3000 said:
One of my theology teachers made a good point, it goes like this:

A man sets out two flavors of ice cream on a table for his son to choose.

One is vanilla, the other is strawberry.

The man knows for a fact that his son loves strawberry and will pick strawberry.

But at the same time, the man still gives his son the option of choosing which flavor to pick!

God loves us, that’s why he gave us free will, so that we can choose to love him, we wouldn’t be able to truly love God if we were forced against our own free will to do so. God gives us the choice even though he knows what we will choose.

PS: Capitalize God when you are referring to him!👍
Click to expand...
Actually I didn’t capitalize some instances of God on purpose to differentiate between our one true God in comparison to his ideal belief in his god. Or should I capitalize every instance of God???
 
Kmon23 said:
Actually I didn’t capitalize some instances of God on purpose to differentiate between our one true God in comparison to his ideal belief in his god. Or should I capitalize every instance of God???
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No. I believe you are right. And the other poster should have capitalised the last word of his post “Him”, which is referring to God.
 
Kmon23 said:
Actually I didn’t capitalize some instances of God on purpose to differentiate between our one true God in comparison to his ideal belief in his god. Or should I capitalize every instance of God???
Click to expand...
Only if you are referring to the one true God:D
 
McCartney said:
No. I believe you are right. And the other poster should have capitalised the last word of his post “Him”, which is referring to God.
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When you say him/her you are referring to a person, but when you say their name, the proper thing to do is to capitalize his/her name, you have a good point though, but I don’t think it is required to capitalize words that refer to a person or place.
 
johnnyt3000 said:
When you say him/her you are referring to a person, but when you say their name, the proper thing to do is to capitalize his/her name, you have a good point though, but I don’t think it is required to capitalize words that refer to a person or place.
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When you use a pronoun for God, you must capitalise it.
 
McCartney said:
When you use a pronoun for God, you must capitalise it.
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Oh? Says who?

Pronouns referring to God are not capitalized in the Douay-Rheims or the RSV-CE translations of the Bible, nor in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
 
DaveBj said:
Oh? Says who?

Pronouns referring to God are not capitalized in the Douay-Rheims or the RSV-CE translations of the Bible, nor in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
This practice is not always followed today. However, in the past it was considered respectful and necessary to capitalize any words that were referring to God. This would include pronouns and words like Lord, Father, Creator,… etc. when used to refer to God. It is also conventional to use god to refer to a pagan entity and God to refer to the Christian deity. IMHO, it is a wonderful way to acknowledge God and honor His name.
 
This is not an answer to your question, but a tip: Engage your friend in friendly discussion of this topic if he is willing, but do not endanger your relationship with him on account of your disagreement. Present him the facts. But agree to disagree.

This may not be a issue with your friend, but I am having an issue right now with an atheist friend and I think our relationship is degrading because of it, which is a shame, because he is a genuinely good person, albeit a little rigid in his reasoning and understanding sometimes.

On the other hand, I have a protestant friend and I have gently pointed out the error of sola scriptura by showing him articles, etc… But I will not press the matter, because our friendship is worth more than my desire to prove to him that I am right. I present, but I do not push.

Then there’s my gay atheist friend who looks at me weird when I talk about the Bible or the church and tells me he prefers “physics”… oh boy… we are all in different points in our lives, and we have to remember that we were not always where we are now and have to be gentle with others sometimes.
 
SecretCatholic said:
This is not an answer to your question, but a tip: Engage your friend in friendly discussion of this topic if he is willing, but do not endanger your relationship with him on account of your disagreement. Present him the facts. But agree to disagree.

This may not be a issue with your friend, but I am having an issue right now with an atheist friend and I think our relationship is degrading because of it, which is a shame, because he is a genuinely good person, albeit a little rigid in his reasoning and understanding sometimes.

On the other hand, I have a protestant friend and I have gently pointed out the error of sola scriptura by showing him articles, etc… But I will not press the matter, because our friendship is worth more than my desire to prove to him that I am right. I present, but I do not push.

Then there’s my gay atheist friend who looks at me weird when I talk about the Bible or the church and tells me he prefers “physics”… oh boy… we are all in different points in our lives, and we have to remember that we were not always where we are now and have to be gentle with others sometimes.
Click to expand...
Well said! 👍
 
Well said Secret Catholic!

" Agree to disagree". That is very good.👍 You made a lot of good points. I get into the type of discussions you do Secret Catholic and pretty much go about the same rout.

Kmon23. you stated that he said “He thinks what Jesus said about salvation being nonsense”
Also "living righteous the** only way to be.**

“faith is meaningless”
“idea of faith to be silly”

your friend is not being logical. In fact he is being insulting!:(😦

He read Decartes and now is an expert? Oy Vey!

If he did use those words, they are not words which a person well versed in logic would use. They are emotionally laden and yes, there is some anger there and he is not even "fessing up " to being angry!

His words are not logic but emotional adjectives . He is being insulting and if he does not know it, he needs to be informed of it, such as "wait a minute…if we are going to continue this discussion, you need to respect my beliefs and not use words such as “nonsense” and “meaningless”

“The ONLY way to be” also tends to tell me he thinks he really knows and understands the vastness of all knowledge even though his brain has tremendous limitations!

His use of logic or reason …how many classes has he had in logic and reason?
How old is he…sounds young!

If you want to continue being his friend and he is pushing the limit, one suggest that you do is what secret Catholic said" agree to disagree" and enjoy his company in other areas.

keep us updated. Really. You seem like a rational person and a nice person and he is lucky to have you as his friend.

Sierradepadre:D
 
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