How to better make disciples in the Catholic Church

[God_Seeker_1]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to ask for some wisdom for myself. I am currently a member at a local Catholic parish and I’ve run into some tough spots that I have had to struggle with. For starters, I’ve learned over the years that it does not take too much difficulty to get “married” in the Church. It could be just me, and I hope it is, but I’ve grown to see many Catholics get married who do not end up, shortly after the sacrament of marriage, really practicing the faith in their life. One thing that recently gave me a struggle was I heard one priest say that most couples getting married in the Church typically receive the sacrament of reconciliation before the sacrament of marriage because they are living together, in the sin of fornication.

How can we pray for Priests, and more particularly, how can we help change this drastic problem of people being able to “join” the Church while not having a real change of heart in their life from sin to God?

I for one, do not think it is inappropriate to simply ask an engaged couple if they are sexually pure, for they must be to receive the sacrament of marriage. If a couple is living together, they must separate.

It used to be that this was plain and expected from Catholic Bishops (See St. Ignatius on the requirements of marriage in the Church), but now I’m afraid many priests feel this is priding into people’s private lives and that it is none of their business.

The problem I have with this is that a Priest is supposed to help someone live their life in the will of Jesus Christ. How can they do that if they simple “declare” the will of God, and yet allow those who are willfully disobedient to receive the sacraments?

 

[KrazyKat]

I personally do not feel that it is appropriate to question the Priest’s decision. You are on the outside looking in, you do not know what counseling he has given the couple.

You can think what you will but it is not your decision to make, nor to question our priests.

Praise God that the couple was married in His church.

 

[Suslar]

I personally do not feel that it is appropriate to question the Priest’s decision. You are on the outside looking in, you do not know what counseling he has given the couple.

You can think what you will but it is not your decision to make, nor to question our priests.

Praise God that the couple was married in His church.

What are you talking about? The OP had a question about marriage in general - not one specific couple that may or may not have been counseled by a priest. And, IMO, the OP is right to question such things - it’s the only way to change the paradigm. If everyone stays silent, problems, evil and sin can creep in and make for bad situations. I didn’t read where OP was questioning a priest’s judgment, but questioning the ease with how some people marry.

I think we have to keep asking that question. What does it mean to be married? What does it mean to be married in the Church? If a couple cannot differentiate, then are they really ready for a Sacramental marriage? Probably not.

I recently listened to one priest suggest that it is a grave sin for people to be married in the Church who have no intention of entering into the Sacramental union for life. So where you are giving praise that a couple marries in Church, I’d rather focus attention on helping people understand what that means BEFORE they marry.

 

[God_Seeker_1]

I personally do not feel that it is appropriate to question the Priest’s decision. You are on the outside looking in, you do not know what counseling he has given the couple.

You can think what you will but it is not your decision to make, nor to question our priests.

Praise God that the couple was married in His church.

Hi KrazyKat,

Thanks for commenting. I am actually very involved, far from being on the outside looking in. Be that as it may, my concern is that people are receiving the sacraments, but there is little emphasis on the right disposition of the soul in relation to God that actually works the sacrament into our lives. If someone just receives the sacraments unworthily, or without repentance or faith, it avails to no ened (except infant baptism). What good is bringing someone through the sacraments without forming them into converting to Christ?

 

[KrazyKat]

Hi KrazyKat,

Thanks for commenting. I am actually very involved, far from being on the outside looking in. Be that as it may, my concern is that people are receiving the sacraments, but there is little emphasis on the right disposition of the soul in relation to God that actually works the sacrament into our lives. If someone just receives the sacraments unworthily, or without repentance or faith, it avails to no ened (except infant baptism). What good is bringing someone through the sacraments without forming them into converting to Christ?

Thanks. Now I clearly see your concern. My answer to your question is none at all.
This is my humble opinion.

 

[clem456]

The first concern for us as Christians is to BE a disciple, not to notice the spiritual shortcomings of others.
If you allow God to continually work in your life, others can then be evangelized.

 

[God_Seeker_1]

The first concern for us as Christians is to BE a disciple, not to notice the spiritual shortcomings of others.
If you allow God to continually work in your life, others can then be evangelized.

Clem456,

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and I sympathize with your comment. However, I am afraid that this approach, ultimately, if one leave it like that, often becomes a misconception. Firstly, how did Jesus evangelize? We know that upon receiving the Holy Spirit (His own annointing similar to our confirmation) he immediately received his temptation and was sent out to preach a message of bringing sinners to repentance and the grace of God’s forgiveness. He did this in many ways that were confrontational and intentional. Jesus did not wait for others to look at him and admire his life, although this of course did indeed happen and did indeed strike people in their own conversions. I am thinking of St. Peter who just threw himself down “Depart from me for I am a sinful man!”, upon Jesus bringing up a myriad of fish.

If you take a quick review of the gospel accounts, our Lord was a preacher, and this was his action in bringing sinners back to God.

Now, if Jesus preached intentionally to people, should we? After all, we are sinful and are to be humble as possible. Wouldn’t intentionally engaging people in their life be a bit offensive? Perhaps, but the simple fact of the matter is, Jesus did commission the apostles with the same mission he received from the Father, and it is not a far stretch to then conclude that the mission of the apostles is one of preaching the gospel. And as I have noted, it was not a silent endeavor. Many Catholics today think that simply by living out the gospel in front of their families and peers, that this will bring them back to God. I admire this, and I hope all Catholis do this. But we must not escape the insufficiency of this on the basis of Scripture, Tradition, and the wisdom of our Popes. John Paul II repeatedly declared that each and every baptized and confirmed disciples has the obligation to preach the gospel to every creature. This does not mean to live holy in front of them, but to actually convince them to live as a disciple as well. Now, if someone is unholy themselves and does not follow Christ, he cannot preach the gospel (1 Cor 9), and therefore the command to preach the gospel assumes one is already living it out in front of his/her peers.

Lastly, Jesus did not ultimately intend us to never peer into the shortcomings of others. In fact, when sin appears in the Church, it is the will of Jesus Christ for other holy brothers to confront that individual to win them back to repentance and righteousness. Ultimately, if this process fails itself, Jesus’ command was to “consider him a tax collector and a heathen” (in other words expell the sinners from the midst of the Church- see 1 Cor 5).

Is this mean? Offensive? It might seem like this. But you see, because we are the body of Christ, one persons’s sin is not his own problem. It is the problem of the whole (1 Cor 5:11-13), and so it affects all. If my brother is in sin, it hurts me to know his relationship with God is in danger of breaking. I will do everything I can to lovingly bring him back to the light. This is the will and command of Christ, and no one of us has the right to abstain from it.

So while I appreciate your concern, we must always explore the whole will of God for us.

 

[clem456]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to ask for some wisdom for myself. I am currently a member at a local Catholic parish and I’ve run into some tough spots that I have had to struggle with. For starters, I’ve learned over the years that it does not take too much difficulty to get “married” in the Church. It could be just me, and I hope it is, but I’ve grown to see many Catholics get married who do not end up, shortly after the sacrament of marriage, really practicing the faith in their life. One thing that recently gave me a struggle was I heard one priest say that most couples getting married in the Church typically receive the sacrament of reconciliation before the sacrament of marriage because they are living together, in the sin of fornication.

How can we pray for Priests, and more particularly, **how can we help change this drastic problem of people being able to “join” the Church while not having a real change of heart in their life from sin to God? **
I for one, do not think it is inappropriate to simply ask an engaged couple if they are sexually pure, for they must be to receive the sacrament of marriage. If a couple is living together, they must separate.
I don’t know what the priests ask your marriage candidates in the privacy of their prep meetings. I am sure they struggle with many of the same issues that you and I do.
It used to be that this was plain and expected from Catholic Bishops (See St. Ignatius on the requirements of marriage in the Church), but now I’m afraid many priests feel this is priding into people’s private lives and that it is none of their business.

Might be an oversimplification of what happens during marriage prep.

The problem I have with this is that a Priest is supposed to help someone live their life in the will of Jesus Christ. How can they do that if they simple “declare” the will of God, and yet allow those who are willfully disobedient to receive the sacraments?
Why is that your problem? Serious question, I’m not trying to be confrontational. How do you know the spiritual state of someone receiving the sacraments. If you don’t know (only God does), why is that your problem?
Clem456,

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and I sympathize with your comment. However, I am afraid that this approach, ultimately, if one leave it like that, often becomes a misconception. Firstly, how did Jesus evangelize?
Perhaps you are conflating evangelization with justice, and who is responsible for it. God is responsible for judging a person’s soul. We are called to evangelize. The most effective method of evangelization is not to monitor the state of others’ souls, which is not within our abilities. We are called to speak the life-giving truth and live it with our lives, God is responsible for the results you are wondering about in your OP.
This does not diminish the responsibility of priests or the rest of us, but is a matter of proper focus. We must be disciples first. This is why Jesus goes to the desert, to pray, then he gathers his disciples and goes about changing their lives, then they go about spreading the word. He does not ask them to judge others, but to be Christians first.

Ultimately this is how Jesus evangelized. A lot of people were unconvinced by Christ’s preaching, and still are. His answer to that is the image below. This is the hard part of Christian life, to accept those who refuse to live the way we would like them to. (not the same as accepting their behavior). Why don’t you ask one of these couples you are concerned about to dinner after Mass? Befriend them and let them see how Christ is working in your life.

 

[God_Seeker_1]

Ultimately this is how Jesus evangelized. A lot of people were unconvinced by Christ’s preaching, and still are. His answer to that is the image below. This is the hard part of Christian life, to accept those who refuse to live the way we would like them to. (not the same as accepting their behavior). Why don’t you ask one of these couples you are concerned about to dinner after Mass? Befriend them and let them see how Christ is working in your life.

Clem456,

I think you are on the right track. I do agree with you that one should approach such situations gently, knowing that certain things can produce a worse result if approached too strongly. But at the end of the day, we still have the general commands of Christ.

Please read Matthew 18 on the discussion with the apostles on Church Discipline. From this we can see how the following is an appropriate course of action. There is a known fornicator in the Church. He is unrepentant, and wishes to continue living in this state. Another brother in the church sits down and mentions that living in fornication is against the will of Christ and will ruin ones relationship with God. The fornicator realizes his sin and breaks the relationship and turns to doing what is right.

I recall you saying that one could invite a sinning couple over for dinner to discuss how Christ has worked in their own life. But, Christ commanded his disciples to confront the person in their sin. I think you should first deal with the words of Christ, before giving your own wisdom on the issue.

Therefore, it would also be totally appropriate if the fornicator refused to repent and was eventually excommunicated from the Church. This is the will of Jesus Christ, despite our modern notions of love and compassion.

Give me your synopsis of matthew 18 and explain how it is compatible with your own method. And I would say that if you have not run into this kind of situation yet, you are probably not as involved as much as Christ would want.

 

[clem456]

You’re conflating evangelization with the responsibility for justice, which ultimately is God’s alone.

Clem456,

Please read Matthew 18 on the discussion with the apostles on Church Discipline.
See next post

I recall you saying that one could invite a sinning couple over for dinner to discuss how Christ has worked in their own life. But, Christ commanded his disciples to confront the person in their sin. I think you should first deal with the words of Christ, before giving your own wisdom on the issue.
The Gospel is wise. Christ dines with sinners far more than he calls them out on their sin. He condemns those who judge outside the scope of their competence and authority. The Gospel is wise. And the Gospel asks you this question:
“Am I willing also to be confronted by people who do not know me with my own sins? People who cannot possible know I have been repentant but still struggle?” I think any honest person would answer NO. Hence Pope Francis’ statement "Who am I to judge? There is a difference between evangelization and judgment. They should be two different discussions.
Therefore, it would also be totally appropriate if the fornicator refused to repent and was eventually excommunicated from the Church. This is the will of Jesus Christ, despite our modern notions of love and compassion.
We do not excommunicate people for sinning. You and I are members of the Church, are we not?
Give me your synopsis of matthew 18 and explain how it is compatible with your own method. And I would say that if you have not run into this kind of situation yet, you are probably not as involved as much as Christ would want.

Yes you are correct, I am not as involved as Christ would want.
Nor am I a scripture scholar, so I will simply post Matthew 18 in a separate post and bold a couple phrases that strike me. You should talk about scripture interpretation with the priest in question, then talk to the couples directly, maybe take them to dinner. They may become your brothers and sisters, which is the first step to evangelizing them.

Notice how the passage about sin in the Church is book-ended.
And notice that this is directed not to those “out there”, but directly to the disciples.
Notice the phrase “brother or sister” in referring to sinners. This assumes a relationship. It is not generic “other people”. If we have no skin in the game, so to speak, we probably should not admonish individuals about their sins. (not the same as accepting our sins, we never accept sin)

Hence, the good judgment of your priest has the best opportunity to know these people as we cannot possible know them, as he has spent time with them, we have not. This is why the Church has marriage prep, and RCIA, etc…the Church comes to know people and people come to know the Church. We are called to a practical and proper evangelization rooted in the actual Gospel, not in our notions and distant judgments of who people are.

 

[clem456]

The Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven

18 At that time **the disciples came to Jesus **and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

Causing to Stumble

6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

The Parable of the Wandering Sheep

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. [11] [a]

12 “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Dealing With Sin in the Church

15 “If your brother or sister** sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.

19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[g]

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[h] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.* He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”***

 

[alexandratm]

I like the idea of befriending the couples. I’m in the process of converting to Catholicism, but I sin. I sin a lot - and they aren’t minor sins. It’s not that I’m intending to defraud the church or disrespect the Church’s teachings, but it’s a slow, evolutionary process for me. Some of my beliefs that were contrary to the Catholic church have changed, but others have not. But my mind is open. These people may be the same, and a loving friendship which models your values could have a great influence. They could be moving towards following all the tenets of the Church, just very slowly. I think a warm friendship with open dialogue would be a great way to start things, rather than trying to preach. In all likelihood, they already know they are in error. But what you don’t know is why. Friendship would be a great way to get the ball rolling in a more positive direction.

 

[God_Seeker_1]

You’re conflating evangelization with the responsibility for justice, which ultimately is God’s alone.

Clem456,

I am not sure what your point is. Are you saying that each disciple does not have to obey Matthew 18? And of course there is a brother/sister relationship, they are in the Church. But once they refuse to listen to the Church, they are excommunicated and no longer considered brother or sister, but as tax collector and heathen.

I think we need to examine what JESUS is saying here and seek to understand it. If we find that in our hearts, we disagree with it, then we are not disagreeing with some man’s opinion, but the Lord of Lords.

Again, I am not sure what you are trying to argue. Are you saying that we should evangelize people but not proclaim the will of Christ?

Even a situation of Church discipline is an oppurtunity for evangelization, for it could be the first time the sinner realizes that he needs to repent for God’s mercy, and cannot presume upon it.

Your strategy of keeping to yourself can also cost one their eternal soul :

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

 

[clem456]

I like the idea of befriending the couples. I’m in the process of converting to Catholicism, but I sin. I sin a lot - and they aren’t minor sins. It’s not that I’m intending to defraud the church or disrespect the Church’s teachings, but it’s a slow, evolutionary process for me. Some of my beliefs that were contrary to the Catholic church have changed, but others have not. But my mind is open. These people may be the same, and a loving friendship which models your values could have a great influence. They could be moving towards following all the tenets of the Church, just very slowly. I think a warm friendship with open dialogue would be a great way to start things, rather than trying to preach. In all likelihood, they already know they are in error. But what you don’t know is why. Friendship would be a great way to get the ball rolling in a more positive direction.

From one sinner to another
Welcome to the Church. :extrahappy:
I pray your local parish is a source of joy, peace, and conversion for you. :grouphug:

 

[God_Seeker_1]

I like the idea of befriending the couples. I’m in the process of converting to Catholicism, but I sin. I sin a lot - and they aren’t minor sins. It’s not that I’m intending to defraud the church or disrespect the Church’s teachings, but it’s a slow, evolutionary process for me. Some of my beliefs that were contrary to the Catholic church have changed, but others have not. But my mind is open. These people may be the same, and a loving friendship which models your values could have a great influence. They could be moving towards following all the tenets of the Church, just very slowly. I think a warm friendship with open dialogue would be a great way to start things, rather than trying to preach. In all likelihood, they already know they are in error. But what you don’t know is why. Friendship would be a great way to get the ball rolling in a more positive direction.

I agree 100%.

But the OP was concerning people who are already Catholics within the Church- Baptized, Confirmed, received holy communion, etc,etc. There are vows associated with these acts that cannot be broken.

 

[alexandratm]

I agree 100%.

But the OP was concerning people who are already Catholics within the Church- Baptized, Confirmed, received holy communion, etc,etc. There are vows associated with these acts that cannot be broken.

Yes, but no one is perfect. They know they broke their vows. Is one member of the parish preaching to them or shunning them going to change things? Likely no. It’s the whole concept of catching more flies with honey than vinegar. Reaching out and befriending these people gives the OP an opening to eventually have an open dialogue with them. Truly, what would move a person more - having an acquaintance from the parish tell them they are sinning, or having a good friend, at the right time, ask them lovingly why they are doing something? I found, growing up, that my parents instilled far more obedience in me not by telling me I was wrong or disobedient or ordering me to do things, but instead by dialogue and asking thought-provoking questions. Asking, rather than telling, often has a more persuasive result, because the person is coming to his/her conclusions to modify his/her behavior all on his own. If you change their mind in this way, they’re less likely to lapse back into bad behavior, because the change has been made in their mind and heart, rather than simply trying to conform their behavior outwardly because they’ve been chastised.

 

[God_Seeker_1]

Alexandratm,

So are you saying that the wisdom of Jesus is going to lead us in the wrong (Matt 18). The Church has the responsibility to not allow unrepentant sin to remain within the church. Let’s focus on the teaching of our Lord.