How to defend creation against "matter and energy have just always existed"?

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HomeschoolDad

HomeschoolDad

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This subject came up in our homeschool science class the other day. We, as Catholics, believe that Almighty God created everything that exists ex nihilo — from nothing. However, how do we defend against the proposition that “it wasn’t created, it has just always existed and it always will exist, it just does, there is no creator to have created it”? How can this be disproved?
 
Well, we know from our own experience that any matter or energy has to come from somewhere. We wouldn’t use the excuse that “oh well, I guess it’s always existed” for anything else.
 
Tolle_Lege said:
Well, we know from our own experience that any matter or energy has to come from somewhere. We wouldn’t use the excuse that “oh well, I guess it’s always existed” for anything else.
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Well, now, you’ve introduced a doubt into my mind, whether our text (Apologia Press, Exploring Creation with Chemistry and Physics) accurately reflects the First Law of Thermodynamics. ECCP says that neither energy nor matter can be created nor destroyed. Some sources only say “energy”. It wouldn’t really matter (no pun intended) — even if matter weren’t part of it, you would still have the conundrum of something never having been created.

Again, when my son played devil’s advocate, I was reduced to saying “well… well… they were created, bottom line”. But to a nonbeliever, that would cut no ice whatsoever.

Is there a simple, efficient “Catholic answer” for this question? Apologia texts just presuppose Christian faith and doctrine, I don’t know how they would deal with a “thought-stopper” such as this question.
 
In other words, something physical or which can be measured cannot bring itself into creation. Anyone claiming that matter and energy “always has been” then has to answer how that matter organized itself into a universe which eventually created life.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
This subject came up in our homeschool science class the other day. We, as Catholics, believe that Almighty God created everything that exists ex nihilo — from nothing. However, how do we defend against the proposition that “it wasn’t created, it has just always existed and it always will exist, it just does, there is no creator to have created it”? How can this be disproved?
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Honestly, science doesn’t know. What happened before the Big Bank is a wall of mystery for science at this point in time. There are several hypothesis and some math that may work but science doesn’t KNOW what the conditions were before the Big Bang and time itself started.

So, I would explain to your son that you have the Catholic answer and science just doesn’t know…they are still working on it!
 
Tolle_Lege said:
We wouldn’t use the excuse that “oh well, I guess it’s always existed” for anything else.
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But isn’t that exactly what you do when you claim that God has always existed? You’re simply conceding the fact that something has always existed, so all that we’re actually discussing is what that something is.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
This subject came up in our homeschool science class the other day. We, as Catholics, believe that Almighty God created everything that exists ex nihilo — from nothing. However, how do we defend against the proposition that “it wasn’t created, it has just always existed and it always will exist, it just does , there is no creator to have created it”? How can this be disproved?
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As DBHart puts it to this atheist, it doesn’t matter whether the physical universe has no beginning. The ontological existence of physical reality is the relevant question. The physical plane would still need a cause/explanation beyond itself. All the old proofs of God from Aristotle to St. Thomas were arrived at with this kind of “eternal physics” in mind. Enjoy!


 
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How do t hey know that matter and energy have always existed? And even if this matter and energy has been out there for ‘x’ number of years, why would matter and energy suddenly turn a tree, a goat, a human? Was that all by chance? There’s too much intelligence in the universe, too much order, for it all to be just random. Nature hangs in such a delicate balance. That can’t all by by random. Order doesn’t come from chaos.
 
lelinator said:
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Anesti33:
PROVE IT!!!

Onus is on them!
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Why?..
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If someone wants to assert a eternal universe against all evidence in natural science, and against de fide Church teaching about our Creator, then that person will need to provide his own evidence and proof thereof. The onus is not on us to defend.
 
Anesti33 said:
If someone wants to assert a eternal universe against all evidence in natural science, and against de fide Church teaching about our Creator, then that person will need to provide his own evidence and proof thereof. The onus is not on us to defend.
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Like I said earlier, theists have already conceded that something has always existed. Why does science need to prove what that something is, yet theism doesn’t?

If you like I will simply defer to Penrose’s CCC. Sure, I can’t prove that it’s correct, but then you can’t prove your theory either.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
This subject came up in our homeschool science class the other day. We, as Catholics, believe that Almighty God created everything that exists ex nihilo — from nothing. However, how do we defend against the proposition that “it wasn’t created, it has just always existed and it always will exist, it just does, there is no creator to have created it”? How can this be disproved?
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God has always existed so:

A: Everything has also always existed or
B: He started it with a Big Bang.

Where’s the problem? Whatever science discovers is simply the means by which God did it. For heaven’s sake, don’t do it the other way around. If you start saying ‘This is what He did’ and it proves not to be the case, then where do you go then?
 
To me, the simple point to make is that the scientific measurements to date all point to the fact that the universe is expanding at an accelerated rate in all directions. How can something that always existed be expanding like this? Also, dark matter and dark energy are new theoretical constructs that supposedly prevent the universe from tearing itself apart, did they always exist?
 
lelinator said:
But isn’t that exactly what you do when you claim that God has always existed? You’re simply conceding the fact that something has always existed, so all that we’re actually discussing is what that something is.
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We know that something ordered like the universe, or laws of physics that allow us to study things, have a creator behind them. Anything assembled, ordered, invented, etc. in this world has a human mind behind it. The mind behind the universe is God. People who try to contain the origin of creation to a pre-existing “thing,” be it some form of matter or energy, something that can be empirically measured, seem not to consider an intangible, immeasurable mind behind it.

Yet when considering an invention like a computer, undoubtedly an intangible thought is what led to its actual existence. A combination of materials and components did not coalesce on their own to form a computer. Nor did the first thought of a computer just spontaneously emanate from material brain matter, as the thought would have been willed first by its creator.

Focusing only on the measurable and empirical cannot lead to answers of philosophical and theological questions. One spins himself into circles trying to figure out what form of matter or energy came first. There was no matter or energy “first.” The Word was eternal.

Getting wrapped around the axle on only the empirically discoverable facets of creation is like contemplating a beautiful Renaissance painting, and instead of appreciating and marveling at its beauty and form, one is instead worried about the chemical composition of the paint colors and the pressures of the brushstrokes.
 
Dan_Defender said:
To me, the simple point to make is that the scientific measurements to date all point to the fact that the universe is expanding at an accelerated rate in all directions. How can something that always existed be expanding like this? Also, dark matter and dark energy are new theoretical constructs that supposedly prevent the universe from tearing itself apart, did they always exist?
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If it’s cyclical, the end conditions of this universe match the starting conditions of the next one. Rinse and repeat.
 
Tolle_Lege said:
We know that something ordered like the universe, or laws of physics that allow us to study things, have a creator behind them. Anything assembled, ordered, invented, etc. in this world has a human mind behind it. The mind behind the universe is God. People who try to contain the origin of creation to a pre-existing “thing,” be it some form of matter or energy, something that can be empirically measured, seem not to consider an intangible, immeasurable mind behind it.
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Unfortunately, you’ve just encountered a solipsist. How would you refute the argument that your supposedly preexisting mind isn’t God’s…it’s mine?
 
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lelinator said:
Unfortunately, you’ve just encountered a solipsist. How would you refute the argument that your preexisting mind isn’t God’s…it’s mine?
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Why would you ask a question to someone else if you weren’t sure they actually existed?
 
Tolle_Lege said:
Yet when considering an invention like a computer, undoubtedly an intangible thought is what led to its actual existence. A combination of materials and components did not coalesce on their own to form a computer. Nor did the first thought of a computer just spontaneously emanate from material brain matter, as the thought would have been willed first by its creator.
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You really need to learn to think outside the box. It’s theoretically possible that we’re actually living in a computer generated reality, and that the creator of that computer generated reality is us.

Yup, we may be living in a reality that we ourselves created, because cause and effect aren’t linear, they’re circular.
 
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