How to defend Mary's Immaculate Conception in the original Greek?

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MatthewBerkeley

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I was discussing Mary’s Immaculate Conception on another discussion board, and I don’t know how to respond to this post.
The first paragraph is by Karl Keating, the Catholic apologist, and the second is a Protestants response to that.
Luke 1:28 and kecaritwme,nh
Karl Keating alleged:
The newer translations leave out something the Greek conveys, something the older translation conveys, which is that this grace (and the core of the word kecharitomene is charis, after all) is at once permanent and of a singular kind. The Greek indicates a perfection of grace. A perfection must be perfect not only intensively, but extensively. The grace Mary enjoyed must not only have been as “full” or strong or complete as possible at any given time, but it must have extended over the whole of her life, from conception. That is, she must have been in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called “full of grace” or to have been filled with divine favor in a singular way. This is just what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception holds. . . . (Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1988), p. 269.)
The above quotation goes far beyond anything a serious exegete of the passage in Greek could possibly say. This can be seen by examining the term in question, the perfect passive participle “kecharitomene.”
First, let’s look at the lexical meaning of the root of the term, that being the Greek word “caritoo”(carito,w) Bauer’s A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (edited by Gingrich and Danker) defines the usage of “caritoo” at Luke 1:28, “favored one (in the sight of God).” No lexical source that we have found gives as a meaning of “caritoo” “sinlessness.” The term refers to favor, in the case of Luke 1:28, divine favor, that is, God’s grace. The only other occurrence of “caritoo” is at Ephesians 1:6, “…to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” If the bare term “caritoo” means “sinlessness,” then it follows that the elect of God, throughout their lives, have been sinless as well.
However, if we look at Mr. Keating’s presentation, it seems clear that he is basing his interpretation not primarily upon the lexical meaning of the word “caritoo”, but upon the form it takes in Luke 1:28, that being the perfect passive participle, “kecharitomene”. Note that Keating alleges that the “Greek indicates a perfection of grace.” He seems to be playing on the perfect tense of the participle. But, as anyone trained in Greek is aware, there is no way to jump from the perfect tense of a participle to the idea that the Greek “indicates a perfection of grace.” First, participles derive their time element from the main verb of the sentence. In this case, however, we have a vocative participle, and no main verb in what is in actuality simply a greeting. (The fact that the Roman Catholic Church has to attempt to build such a complex theology on the form of a participle in a greeting should say a great deal in and of itself.) The main emphasis of a participle is found in its aspect, a present participle providing the idea of continuing action, the aorist undefined action, and the perfect completed action with abiding results to the present. What are we to do with the perfect tense of the participle, then? We might take it as an intensive perfect, one that emphatically states that something is, but most likely it is simply emphasizing the certainty of the favor given, just as the perfect passive participle in Matthew 25:34 (“Come, you who are blessed by my Father . . .”), 1 Thessalonians 1:4 (“knowing, brethren beloved by God . . .”), and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (“But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord . . .”) emphasizes the completedness of the action as well. No one would argue that in Matthew 25:34, Jesus means to tell us that the righteous have a “perfection of blessedness that indicates that they had this perfection throughout their life, for a perfection must be perfect not only intensively, but extensively” (to borrow from Mr. Keating’s presentation). The application of Keating’s thoughts to any of the above passages results in foolishness. Hence, it is obvious that when Keating says that the Greek indicates that Mary “must have been in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called `full of grace’ or to have been filled with divine favor in a singular way,” he is, in point of fact, not deriving this from the Greek at all, but from his own theology, which he then reads back into the text. There is simply nothing in the Greek to support the pretentious interpretation put forward by Keating and Madrid. Therefore, Madrid’s statement, “This is a recognition of her sinless state,” falls for lack of support. The angel addressed Mary as “highly favored,” for, as he himself said, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God” (Luke 1:30).

 
In thinking more about this persons statement, there is one line that strikes me.
(The fact that the Roman Catholic Church has to attempt to build such a complex theology on the form of a participle in a greeting should say a great deal in and of itself.)
It is meant to make the RCC look silly, but to me, it only offers more proof that the RCC is correct, especially when we look outside of scripture.

catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp

These Early Church Fathers have the same Authority as the Bible. It was St. Jerome around 380 A.D. that compiled what would be in the New Testament, and he Choose to include only those writings from the Apostles (or from people who were directly taught by the Apostles).

But when looking at history, we should take into account what was going on. The Apostles were being persecuted for their faith. They were trying to preach the Gospel and start new Churches. They were no concerned about writing things down, unless the only way to communicate was by way of letter. We know the Apostles did teach about Mary, but for obvious reasons, that would not have been their main message during this time of persecution.

The above quote makes sense to me. Why would the Church go to so much trouble? Because it was the Truth. Why would the Church create a false doctrine that could very well devastate the Christian faith?

It is the burden of the Protestants to provide evidence that Mary was not sinless. Since we have evidence from the Bible and the Early Church Fathers from Tradition, I see no way for them to prove their case, except for trying to make an appeal by Sola Scriptura.

Just my thoughts.
 
Re
(The fact that the Roman Catholic Church has to attempt to build such a complex theology on the form of a participle in a greeting should say a great deal in and of itself.)
I think any good Jew will assure one that there are no insignificant words in Scripture. Every word is there for a purpose. That’s one of the reasons I like to read various rabbi’s explanation of Scripture. They can draw a tremendous load of information from very short passages.
 
Re I think any good Jew will assure one that there are no insignificant words in Scripture. Every word is there for a purpose. That’s one of the reasons I like to read various rabbi’s explanation of Scripture. They can draw a tremendous load of information from very short passages.
Good point, which also makes me think of how the writers of the Bible and the Early Church Fathers were breaking new ground. They had to use words in different ways, which then led them to invent new words to better describe what they were trying to say.

All the information given in the OP is very Scholarly, that can not be denied (or can it?) but we should look at what the Author of the Scripture was trying to say. We can do this safely because we have at our disposal writings of the Early Church Fathers, Tradition.
 
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montecarlense:
I have doubts about the “free Will”…I really don’t think such thing exists…
You are correct, please proceed to kill yourself. Everyone else here should follow suit.

http://www.halloweenonlinemagazine.com/sfx/skeleton10-3.jpg

On the other hand, you could accept overwhelming evidence that quantum uncertainty states that the future is not set in stone, and can be affected by your observations.(ie quantum mechanics says what you do changes the future in somewhat controllable fashion). You can’t prove anything about gods, I say one must be ignorant to be anything but agnostic. But sound science says, with 99.9% certainty, now that we’re here, we determine our own fate. If you are sound of mind enough to take my advice you’ll see that you don’t have to stop believing in God, you can just start believing in things that are demonstrably true (ie science).

For any that are not so sound of mind, I suggest the following.

Just like your god fearing ancestors did to this guy:
You should try it out for yourselves.

 
I think it is ironic that he give us a hard time for hanging so much on a participle in the context of that avalanche of information.

As him if he can dumb it down a shade. One of the best ways I know to really confuse an issue is to break out the the greek. If you don’t speak greek and he doesn’t speak greek, then why is he trying to use greek to prove his point. It is like two non-physicists try to explain why the earth revolves using physics talk. I can use the words, but heck if I know what they mean…
 
Let’s assume everything he says about the word in Greek is 100% accurate.

Is he prepared to step into the mind of the person who used that word and prove the speaker was fully holding these principles of language in mind when he spoke, and was restricting himself to that strict sense in order to convey his meaning? How many times have you used the English word “great” when what you really meant to convey was “ultimate” or "“boundless?”

Treating biblical text in this way assumes an infallibility on the part of the speaker that we have no proof is there. It assumes they used words in the precise way that a textual critic of Greek in the 21st century would use the same word. Where is the proof of that as a requirement?

We can see this very easily in words like “replenish.” Today, that means to refill something that at one time had something in it, but a century ago it also meant to fill something that was merely empty whether or not it ever held a substance in it. Another example is the English word “gay.” Someone in 1947 saying “I feel very gay today” would be conveying an entirely different idea than someone saying the same words in 2010.
 
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