How to dialogue with more "extreme" traditionalists

[victrolatim]

I was unsure where to put this thread, but here seems appropriate as it is about discussing the faith and not so much a question about a particular church custom or tradition.

I am not sure what to do. I have some good friends who are devout Catholics and all around decent people. They, however, are very far leaned towards the SSPX and when we get together and discuss things pertaining to the church, the discussion always turns into how what the church is doing now is wrong, or not good enough (as opposed to pre-1962). We have some great discussions about other stuff (sports, politics, history), but my faith is a big part of my life (and theirs) and I want to find a way to charitably dialogue without feeling like I’m debating them.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

Something I learned while a US Naval Officer: By tradition, there are three subjects that are forbidden for discussion in shipboard wardrooms (the Officers living/dining room): sex, Religion and women by name. I think society at large would be better off it adopted that proscription!

 

[Tomdstone]

I was unsure where to put this thread, but here seems appropriate as it is about discussing the faith and not so much a question about a particular church custom or tradition.

I am not sure what to do. I have some good friends who are devout Catholics and all around decent people. They, however, are very far leaned towards the SSPX and when we get together and discuss things pertaining to the church, the discussion always turns into how what the church is doing now is wrong, or not good enough (as opposed to pre-1962). We have some great discussions about other stuff (sports, politics, history), but my faith is a big part of my life (and theirs) and I want to find a way to charitably dialogue without feeling like I’m debating them.

There are many issues involved here and your question is somewhat general, not p(name removed by moderator)ointing one or two specific areas of concern. IMHO, the best approach is to consider the question at hand and read what you can about that particular topic, addressing these issues point by point.

 

[Beryllos]

Maybe look for and discuss what you have in common. Do not quibble over small differences. Truly, in the grand scheme, they are small differences.

 

[coachdennis]

I was unsure where to put this thread, but here seems appropriate as it is about discussing the faith and not so much a question about a particular church custom or tradition.

I am not sure what to do. I have some good friends who are devout Catholics and all around decent people. They, however, are very far leaned towards the SSPX and when we get together and discuss things pertaining to the church, the discussion always turns into how what the church is doing now is wrong, or not good enough (as opposed to pre-1962). We have some great discussions about other stuff (sports, politics, history), but my faith is a big part of my life (and theirs) and I want to find a way to charitably dialogue without feeling like I’m debating them.

Your last sentence says it all. They don’t want dialogue, they want debate, they want to be proven right.

Bottom line to answer your question – you can’t, so don’t frustrate yourself with even trying.

 

[Micosil]

I was unsure where to put this thread, but here seems appropriate as it is about discussing the faith and not so much a question about a particular church custom or tradition.

I am not sure what to do. I have some good friends who are devout Catholics and all around decent people. They, however, are very far leaned towards the SSPX and when we get together and discuss things pertaining to the church, the discussion always turns into how what the church is doing now is wrong, or not good enough (as opposed to pre-1962). We have some great discussions about other stuff (sports, politics, history), but my faith is a big part of my life (and theirs) and I want to find a way to charitably dialogue without feeling like I’m debating them.

I’ve had such discussions with people with similar ideas and attitudes, and in my personal experience with my admittedly small sample of people, it is extremely hard to debate or discuss with such people.

Part of the problem is clear liturgical abuse in their local parishes, which makes them present a knee-jerk reaction – and the issue is there is a fair amount of liturgical abuse in some parishes, so they see it and overreact.

Another is overtly liberal and borderline heretical statements and attitudes coming not just from parish priests, but the very bishop(s) that are in charge of the diocese.

So the way I see to address these two issues that make them overreact is to give them counterexamples – show them parishes and priests that follow the rubrics of Mass down to a tee. Show them bishops that engage the culture and dare to teach what the Church teaches on key issues such as SSM and abortion.

Like I said, it is sometimes hard to debate or discuss these issues with people with these ideas, but these are the methods I’ve had the most success with.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Part of the problem is clear liturgical abuse in their local parishes, which makes them present a knee-jerk reaction – and the issue is there is a fair amount of liturgical abuse in some parishes, so they see it and overreact.

Another is overtly liberal and borderline heretical statements and attitudes coming not just from parish priests, but the very bishop(s) that are in charge of the diocese.

Perhaps your examples show that these people are not over-reacting, but are in fact rightly concerned about the state of things?

As for mass being celebrated by the rubrics, your average traditionalist will be able to explain that the way the mass is celebrated today is not exactly what the V2 reformers had in mind. Sadly.

Perhaps the OP should have that conversation and learn something new.

 

[Micosil]

Perhaps your examples show that these people are not over-reacting, but are in fact rightly concerned about the state of things?

As for mass being celebrated by the rubrics, your average traditionalist will be able to explain that the way the mass is celebrated today is not exactly what the V2 reformers had in mind. Sadly.

Perhaps the OP should have that conversation and learn something new.

The overreaction per se is because they tend to assume all current-day parishes engage in such liturgical abuse, when that clearly isn’t the case.

As for what the V2 reformers had in mind, and the way mass is celebrated today, all I can personally comment on is the way I’ve seen it celebrated here in Spain (an example of something I’ve found which is similar to what I’ve witnessed would be this, watch it and see for yourself), and it’s not anything like the bizarre stuff I’ve seen commented on these forums (the priest sitting on the altar, strumming a guitar, no genuflecting when crossing the altar, etc.)

I guess part of the reason I see less obvious liturgical abuse in my diocese is because the bishop (I won’t say who he is, to avoid revealing my precise location; if anyone wishes to know who he is, send me a PM) is fairly orthodox and traditionalist; he’s frequently gone in public blasting SSM and abortion, much to the chagrin of the secular media and progressive tendencies. There is also one parish under his jurisdiction that celebrates the Tridentine form of mass every first Sunday of the month.

So, it could be that in Spain, less orthodox bishops of other dioceses may allow liturgical abuses to happen without putting an end to it; all I can say is, it doesn’t seem to be the case in the parishes I’ve been to.

So, that liturgical abuse does happen and that traditionalists rightly comment on the woes of the situation, is something that happens. The question is, what one can do, as members of the laity, to fix the situation. And I am not sure attending services of an organization that is in a legal gray area with respect to the Holy See is the best solution.

 

[Sarcelle]

The overreaction per se is because they tend to assume all current-day parishes engage in such liturgical abuse, when that clearly isn’t the case.

As for what the V2 reformers had in mind, and the way mass is celebrated today, all I can personally comment on is the way I’ve seen it celebrated here in Spain (an example of something I’ve found which is similar to what I’ve witnessed would be this, watch it and see for yourself), and it’s not anything like the bizarre stuff I’ve seen commented on these forums (the priest sitting on the altar, strumming a guitar, no genuflecting when crossing the altar, etc.)

I guess part of the reason I see less obvious liturgical abuse in my diocese is because the bishop (I won’t say who he is, to avoid revealing my precise location; if anyone wishes to know who he is, send me a PM) is fairly orthodox and traditionalist; he’s frequently gone in public blasting SSM and abortion, much to the chagrin of the secular media and progressive tendencies. There is also one parish under his jurisdiction that celebrates the Tridentine form of mass every first Sunday of the month.

So, it could be that in Spain, less orthodox bishops of other dioceses may allow liturgical abuses to happen without putting an end to it; all I can say is, it doesn’t seem to be the case in the parishes I’ve been to.

So, that liturgical abuse does happen and that traditionalists rightly comment on the woes of the situation, is something that happens. The question is, what one can do, as members of the laity, to fix the situation. And I am not sure attending services of an organization that is in a legal gray area with respect to the Holy See is the best solution.

If I were you I would trust in the bishop instead the traditionalists who think that there is liturgical abuse in every parish.

 

[Casilda]

While I agree with Micosil, about countering their objections with positive examples, that may get them to back down, halfway. You need to look at the big picture, at least they are still Catholic. Almost all in my family, mom and dad’s side both, fled Catholicism because of what happened in the 60’s ( I will not use the V word because it usually means a closed or vanishing thread). So thank them for remaining Catholic, they are very brave for having done so. My mother-in-law is still traumatized because the timing of the church changes also coincides to traumatic events in her life having to migrate to the U S fleeing a communist country with her young children. She saw the world in chaos and the church was no consolation. She has her own anti-Catholic religion to this day. Its sad. So I don’t think being an extreme Catholic is bad.

 

[InNomineDomini]

I am not sure what to do. I have some good friends who are devout Catholics and all around decent people. They, however, are very far leaned towards the SSPX and when we get together and discuss things pertaining to the church, the discussion always turns into how what the church is doing now is wrong, or not good enough (as opposed to pre-1962).

I’d recommend this book: amazon.com/The-Pope-Council-Mass-Traditionalists/dp/1931018340#customerReviews. Despite what I consider some silly Amazon reviews, the book really does seem to be an excellent primer on the whole SSPX thing. (To be fair, I’ve only flipped through it thus far: it’s a new acquisition.)

Also, a word about me personally. I absolutely sympathize with folks who want a return to a more reverent Mass, and I’ve often been frustrated that the Church made certain changes in the 1960s.

However, I started to notice that my appreciation for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass began to lead to some unwanted spiritual consequences. I was basically guilty of spiritual envy of folks who lived in previous generations, and I wasn’t grateful to God for the wonderful Mass that our own generation has, let alone for the miracle of the Eucharist. Moreover, I started to develop a holier-than-thou attitude, and to constantly look down on folks for “not being Catholic enough.”

But worst of all, I was even looking down on the Magisterium itself, and second guessing them about almost everything, and assuming that I knew all about the faith so much better than they. How stupid they all were for “ignoring” Tradition!

Now, I have to admit that I’m often a moron. But I also have to say, that if my appreciation for the old Mass can lead me to a difficult position spiritually, it certainly could do the same for others. Not that we shouldn’t appreciate the Old Mass. BUT … certain of us can be tempted to stupidity by this appreciation, while others are fine and dandy. I cannot be fine and dandy since, once again, I’m often a moron.

Basically put, I eventually Confessed certain of these sins, and simply learned to stop worrying, and to really appreciate the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

I would therefore look at a lot of folks as perhaps being in a similar position to my own: perhaps they’re getting carried away by overemphasizing the beauty of the Old Rite, and perhaps they’re permitting themselves to become slightly darkened spiritually by their frustrations that the Old Rite is not the Ordinary Rite.

I think two good articles about this sort of thing are: mark-shea.com/isotsaenc.html

… and mark-shea.com/tpotnct.html

 

[Denise1957]

I was unsure where to put this thread, but here seems appropriate as it is about discussing the faith and not so much a question about a particular church custom or tradition.

I am not sure what to do. I have some good friends who are devout Catholics and all around decent people. They, however, are very far leaned towards the SSPX and when we get together and discuss things pertaining to the church, the discussion always turns into how what the church is doing now is wrong, or not good enough (as opposed to pre-1962). We have some great discussions about other stuff (sports, politics, history), but my faith is a big part of my life (and theirs) and I want to find a way to charitably dialogue without feeling like I’m debating them.

I don’t know if this is correct advice to give, but I think it would be difficult to discuss the faith with them without it seeming like a debate. Quite likely they love the Catholic Faith just as much as anyone else, and are upset about the changes after the Council, as well as the current situation. And…they may be right about a few things. However, since it seems uncomfortable for you to listen to a lot of criticism of the Church (and that’s okay, too), you could let them know, and try avoid those conversations. Or not let them know, but steer the conversation away from uncomfortable topics.

I participate on an SSPX-friendly forum, but I almost always avoid those topics which are too controversial, or become heated. But I also like that they discuss issues that are not generally being discussed on other boards.

God bless!