How to explain prayer to saints and Mary with only the bible?

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EsclavoDeCristo

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I was speaking with one of my housemates who is a non-Catholic Christian. The topic of asking Mary and the saints to pray for us came up and I, along with another housemate tried to explain it to him. We said that asking Mary or a saint to pray for us is the same as asking a relative, friend or holy person that is alive to pray for us. He didn’t want that answer. He wants to know “where in the bible” it says that?

So my question to you is, how can I explain this to him, given that he is prone to only accept a “book, chapter, verse” answer?

Or how can I explain it in a totally charitable and easy for him to understand way?

Thanks in advance for your help. God bless you all!
 
Well, Rev 5:8 says “And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” This could mean two different things. Either, these elders that are already in heaven are interceding for us, or they can at least hear us and are taking our prayers(us being the saints that are praying, since protestants count every Christian a saint) to God. Either way, that proves that those in heaven can at the very least hear our prayers and take them to God.

Again in Rev 8:3-4 “Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.4The smoke of the incense,** together with the prayers of the saints**, went up before God from the angel’s hand.”
 
Praying to the saints may feel, to them, like “consulting the dead” which is forbidden in the Bible. So that might be a hard one to win them over on. I can’t think of any place in the Bible where prayer or intercession of those who have passed on is portrayed.

cheddar
 
Jesus Mother interceded before him at the wedding of Cana, for a prefigurement as well. I’d try to get to the root of the bible and faitha nd reason, but try here as well www.scripturecatholic.com
 
Let’s step back a second and think about what the Bible really tells us. Much of the Bible are stories that bring a point across - whether it be a foretelling of Christ’s passion, or lessons on how God wants us to behave, right?

So think abut all the times in the people where someone interceded for another, directly to God or Jesus! For example:

Abraham on behalf of Sodom, Abimelech
Jacob on behalf of his children
Moses on behalf of the Pharaoh
Moses for Israel
David for Israel
Solomon, Jeremiah, Amos for Israel
Ezra for Israel
Nehemiah for Judah and Jerusalem
the Disciples for Peter’s wife’s mother
the parents for the son with seizures
Paul, for the Church

the list goes on and on. It CAN’T be something that God doesn’t highly recommend for us to do, with this many examples. And think about what Israel represents, and all the people who interceded on its behalf!

There are many more examples in the OT - I think that’s setting the stage that in the NT, intercession for another is to Jesus Christ.

And I agree with the prior post, Mary’s intercession at Cana is also a great example.
 
Yes, but those people were ALIVE. And since the Bible does say that we shouldn’t seek counsel from the dead, you can see where the fact that saints and Mary have passed to the other side, might give people some pause.

Maybe the transfiguration might be a better place to look. Jesus spoke with those who were no longer of this world, though Elijah didn’t ever die…

cheddar
 
Well, technically, we don’t actually pray TO Mary and the Saints. We ask them for help, but we say prayers to them. We ask Mary and the Saints to intercede for us and help us.
 
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sententia:
Jesus Mother interceded before him at the wedding of Cana, for a prefigurement as well. I’d try to get to the root of the bible and faitha nd reason, but try here as well www.scripturecatholic.com
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Thanks for the website, I’ll pass it along to my housemate. Maybe when he is alone with out any CAtholic breathing down his neck, he can explore and read without feeling pressure from us…

Keep him in your prayers :yup: He’s a good man
 
Get out your Douay Rheims and go to Maccabees where Judas Maccabeus prays for the dead soldiers and makes offerings for them. (This is also good for arguing the case for Purgatory).
 
Tantum ergo:
Get out your Douay Rheims and go to Maccabees where Judas Maccabeus prays for the dead soldiers and makes offerings for them. (This is also good for arguing the case for Purgatory).
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What if your talking to protestant that doesnt have Maccabees in his Bible ?
 
Tantum ergo:
Get out your Douay Rheims and go to Maccabees where Judas Maccabeus prays for the dead soldiers and makes offerings for them. (This is also good for arguing the case for Purgatory).
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But aren’t they talking about the fact that the saints and Mary aren’t being prayed FOR but being pray TO. There is a difference.
 
I am going to reference the CCC: (I do this a lot, lol.)

**2635 **Since Abraham, intercession - asking on behalf of another has been characteristic of a heart attuned to God’s mercy. In the age of the Church, Christian intercession participates in Christ’s, as an expression of the communion of saints. In intercession, he who prays looks “not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others,” even to the point of praying for those who do him harm.
 
Grace and Peace be with you all,

This is like trying to illuminate the depth of a novel with just Cliff-notes. 😃

We really need to look at the “whole” thing to see it clearly.

Peace.
 
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EsclavoDeCristo:
I was speaking with one of my housemates who is a non-Catholic Christian. The topic of asking Mary and the saints to pray for us came up and I, along with another housemate tried to explain it to him. We said that asking Mary or a saint to pray for us is the same as asking a relative, friend or holy person that is alive to pray for us. He didn’t want that answer. He wants to know “where in the bible” it says that?

So my question to you is, how can I explain this to him, given that he is prone to only accept a “book, chapter, verse” answer?

Or how can I explain it in a totally charitable and easy for him to understand way?

Thanks in advance for your help. God bless you all!
Click to expand...
The first part of the Hail Mary is found in the bible. The archangel Gabriel composed the first portion of the prayer when he saluted Mary with the words, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women.” (Luke1:28 )

The words of St Elizabeth follow when she said,"* Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" (Luke 1:42)*
The second part of the Hail Mary was composed by the Chirch and is a prayer of petition, not found in the bible, though.

As an aside, it was St. Elizabeth who called Mary the Mother of God when she said this, " *And why is this granted me, that the *mother of my Lord ** should come to me? Luke.1
[43]
 
Only God can hear prayers through Jesus. Since there is only one God we can see how Jesus addressed this in John 14:6 “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”.
 
Well here is my way of thinking :

Christ told us that those who believe in Him will never see death : “whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John11/26).
So each saint in Heaven is still alive in Christ.
Morever, each saint is still member of the body of Christ since “neither death …nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom8/38-39) and since in Christ, he will never die !

And what is the “rule” of the Body of Christ ? Charity ! We catch that in each verse in the New testament ! And that includes praying one for another, doesn’t it ? (See Rom15/30; 2Co1/11; Eph6/18; He13/8, etc…)

So praying the saint for they interceed for us is deeply rooted in real christian’s life !

To conclude I think of a quotation of Paul again :
"But God has combined **the members of the body ** and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. " (1Co12/24-25)
Every thing is here ! In the Body organised by God :
-No division : death isn’t a line !
  • Each member have equal concern for each other : saint in heaven are full of concerns for us ! And what can they do if not praying for us ! And what can we do if not asking them to pray for us ?
 
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tommy4321:
Only God can hear prayers through Jesus. Since there is only one God we can see how Jesus addressed this in John 14:6 “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”.
Click to expand...
In response to your post, I have pasted a portion of an article from the library of Catholic Answers, which addresses your point very well, much better than I could.

One Mediator
Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
 
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