S
salival
Guest
I was reading a thread in another board and found the following comment.
Thanks in advance.
salival
So, what do you think of this?
Thanks in advance.
salival
- Status
B
Binary
Guest
It’s difficult to have a productive discussion with someone who is willing to simply make things up to support their argument. You may want to refer them to some statistics about the catholic population around the world, and leave them be.
S
Shiann
Guest
They make the assertion, it is up to them to provide evidence for their claim.
Ask them to cite their sources and then you can begin to debunk the claim.
Ask them to cite their sources and then you can begin to debunk the claim.
R
RonRule
Guest
You would have to address these issues:
- Is Catholicism in decline? (and how you define it is important–popularity? percentage of population? adherance to orthodoxy? etc)
- If it is in decline, then why?
- What is the nature of science? What are science’s presuppositions?
- What is higher Biblical criticism?
- Do people still believe in Catholicism (this is the easiest to answer
) - You can easily turn the tables, attach athiesm or secular humanism to a demographic, and say it thrives on the negative aspect of that demographic. For example, people succomb to atheism because they are comfortably rich, leftover hippies isolated in their universities.
R
RonRule
Guest
Heheh, yeah, you should do that too!
B
barsapp
Guest
Pure ********.
L
Libero
Guest
I genuinely do not think catholicism is in decline. It just depends where you look, sure in Europe it is in decline for alot of the area, but then again so are alot of the other religions. My church confirmed 64 youths this year (I thought this remarkable, since it does’nt cover a huge area and I am not in a catholic country) compare this to the 2 confirmation candidates of the Church of
England Parish and anyone can see that catholicism is clearly not declining too badly.
England Parish and anyone can see that catholicism is clearly not declining too badly.
Hmm not quite so sure about this. Catholicism thrives on faithful people, trust in God, not needing visual evidence to believe in something and also willingness to accept that humans are not the most important things in existence, and that they do have to answer to someone more important than themselves. Really it is these characteristics that are declining, not Catholicism.
M
mercygate
Guest
“Catholicism, thrives on poverty, ignorance and illiteracy.”
Shucks. I thought it was poverty, chastity and obedience.
Shucks. I thought it was poverty, chastity and obedience.
D
David_Brown
Guest
(1) Decline in what respect(s)? Intellectually? Morally? Spiritually? I don’t think any of those can be defended. How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas Woods and Triumph: The Power and Glory of the Catholic Church by H. W. Crocker give references.
(2) Science? You could show them how Catholicism has advanced science and the scientific method. Works by Pierre Duhem and Stanley Jaki are good resources to show this. Also, books by Ian Barbour are good. When Science and Christianity Meet, eds. Lindberg and Numbers is excellent (David Lindberg and Ronald Numbers have other great stuff). There is so much out there to refute the claims that Christianity is hostile to science.
(3) Thrives on poverty, ignorance, and illiteracy? This is just name-calling. The Church (See 1 above) has supported education and literacy–it developed the modern university system, for example. Many of the brightest minds in science and other fields are and have been believers. Groups like The Society of Christian Philosophers are thriving as are a number of other professional groups.
You might, therefore, point out that those kinds of claims thrive on ignorance, stupidity, and bigotry and that there are much better arguments against religion that smart people use.
David
E
elvisman
Guest
Barsapp -
Let’s refrain from the expletives. We already have the secular world around us for that kind of nonsense. We don’t need it here.
"Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ" - St. Jerome
B
barsapp
Guest
right. in the meanwhile, i’m going to try to find those “masses” of Africa and the Middle East (specially in the Middle East) that believe in Catholicism… (according to my own expierence on the site, real “expletives” are automatically deleted…)
M
mlchance
Guest
S
Seeks_God
Guest
I’m not sure, but wouldn’t this have something to do with another post. I remember a post that had to do with the greatest enemy of the Church. That poll stated that secularism had the biggest influence on declining numbers in the Church…
I think the real issue is not whether or not science is an enemy of the Church, but rather secularism and the lack of faith in God is the greatest threat to mankind.
I think the real issue is not whether or not science is an enemy of the Church, but rather secularism and the lack of faith in God is the greatest threat to mankind.
R
Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
Peace be with you!
Well, Africa certainly has a lot of Catholics…in fact, it’s the fastest growing place for Catholicism right now. But I too would love to find where all those Catholics in the Middle East are.
I agree with another poster who said that it’s almost impossible to argue with someone who is willing to simply make things up to support their position. Just ask them to prove what they say and make sure that what they post in response actually answers the question (ie, don’t let them post a bunch of statistics on the Crusades and Inquisition or the Church’s stance on birth control and how the Church “is responsible for the spread of AIDS”).
In Christ,
Rand
Well, Africa certainly has a lot of Catholics…in fact, it’s the fastest growing place for Catholicism right now. But I too would love to find where all those Catholics in the Middle East are.
I agree with another poster who said that it’s almost impossible to argue with someone who is willing to simply make things up to support their position. Just ask them to prove what they say and make sure that what they post in response actually answers the question (ie, don’t let them post a bunch of statistics on the Crusades and Inquisition or the Church’s stance on birth control and how the Church “is responsible for the spread of AIDS”).
In Christ,
Rand
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
There is at least enough of an appearance of truth in this to make this suggestion plausible - but one can’t stop at Catholicism. Rather, one should ask, if this idea seems plausible, whether the same could be said of other Christianities, and if so, why.
What does this question presuppose ? By what standard is Catholic economic poverty being measured ? It is not self-evident that material poverty is an unmixed evil - the very poor, because they are in greater need than the rest of us, seem often to have a stronger faith. This is not an idealisation of poverty; far less is it an argument for keeping the poor down, so that we can glut ourselves on what we are selfishly denying them - it does seem to be a fact that those with less in the world, often have a greater faith than the wealthy.What are our priorities ? Prosperity in earthly things is not a proof of God’s favour - much less is it the supreme goal of human life, if one is Christian. Prosperity in earthly things can be a warning of judgement to come. Jesus did not say, “Blessed are the very wealthy”. He did say, “Blessed are the poor in spirit…”. James even has a woe to declare against the wealthy.
Christianity attracted many of the poor, slaves, & others. The objection from poverty could easily have been made against the early Church. Certainly there were wealthy & high-ranking Christians from very early on - but they were less numerous than the poor. If outward appearances were anything to go by, no death could have been more disgraceful or disgusting than the Founder’s - yet this crucified peasant is confessed to be Lord & Redeemer by the very people who reproach Catholics for the material poverty of so many of their co-religionists.
If there are going to be people who are poor, there are going to be Christians who are poor. Christianity is not a religion of the wealthy alone - it is for all men, not just for those with healthy bank balances.
National well-being is a matter very largely of the natural wealth of the country in which one lives - people in the USA who make the remarks you mention may be forgetting that if the USA is immensely wealthy, this is largely because its vast extent has more or less ensured that it is very well off in such valuables as oil. Most Catholic countries are far smaller, and simply do not have the natural advantages in which the US is so rich. If Belgium had a population of 270 million, perhaps it would be as wealthy as the USA is. It doesn’t. So it’s not.
Many things help to make a country wealthy - extent, resources, demand for them, size of population, political stability, freedom from disruption by war or invasion, linguistic unity, character of the population, and so on. The USA has not been repeatedly invaded, came into being at a time of great scientific and technological progress, is not surrounded by nations which are ill-disposed to her. One could almost ask, how it is that, with all the advantages the US enjoys, she still has very serious social problems. She lacks many weaknesses that are readily apparent in other nations - but she is not without financial, social, and political problems of her own. The paragraph quoted implies that the USA is itself more or less free of problems - of some, maybe: but certainly not of all. Which means that the US cannot set itself up as a model nation for the rest of the world to imitate in all respects.
The USA may be the country of Wall Street - it is also a country of abortion, racial & inter-racial tension, banking scandals, striptease artists, obscene and depraved films from Hollywood, massive consumption of drugs, satan-worship, Neo-Nazism, the execution of the backward and the underage, and so forth. I’m sure people from the USA will have no difficulty in thinking of other problems. So a little humility from the US despisers of Catholic countries would not go amiss - not least because the CIA has contributed to the very instability of Catholic countries of which we hear so much. Since it was from the US that Freemasonry of a malign kind was introduced into Mexico, it is unsurprising that Freemasonry has contributed to the instabilty of Mexico. US Christians need to stop blaming Catholic countries for the woes which the US has introduced into those countries.
Another point - criticisms of countries are conditioned by their times; that is, they may be relevant & rightly made in 1950 - this does not mean that they will be relevant & rightly made in 1980, or 2000. The countries criticised may be healthier, or less healthy - as may the country from which the critics come. The USA may have been riding high in the Eisenhower years - but it was not exactly in the best of health during the Vietnam years.
I hope this helps
- it’s an important question ##
T
turboEDvo
Guest
Tell him that I can produce a whole mess of intelligent, happy, non-impoverished Catholics that are entirely faithful.
Or simply ignore it…:yup:
Eamon
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Hardly a man who is afraid of the sciences - especially seeing he is Benedictine (see also: Mendel, Gregor; Jesuits, astronomy and).
The sciences are not the only branch of learning - even though the US has been so rich in scientific achievement. Maybe some of the critics who talk about ignorance among Catholics (which is real enough) forget that. ##
P
puzzleannie
Guest
Before dignifying the claim with a reply I would insist the person who made the quote or statement provide proof of absolute correlation between illiteracy or ignorance and membership in the Catholic Church. He should also prove that the Catholic Church has, in fact “declined” and define what he means by that word.
- Status