How was John taken up to heaven in spirit?

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Did he leave his body behind? How could his body survive detached from the soul? Could it be that there were elements of the soul that still remained to keep the body functioning?

Saint Paul wrote:

2 Corinthians 12:21

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows.

I thank you in advance for your assistance.
 
My suggestion is that if you find yourself trying to fit it into a literal interpretation by making things up, (like little bits of soul remaining in the body etc etc) then maybe a literal interpretation is the not what the verses were written for.

Have you considered a spiritual interpretation Abba?

God bless

Kam
 
My suggestion is that if you find yourself trying to fit it into a literal interpretation by making things up, (like little bits of soul remaining in the body etc etc) then maybe a literal interpretation is the not what the verses were written for.

Have you considered a spiritual interpretation Abba?

God bless

Kam
That does sound peculiar, doesn’t it? That part of the soul would remain behind to keep the body functioning… Well, if the soul is allowed to leave the body, as Paul himself said that he did not know, then how is the body kept functioning without the soul?

What would you consider a spiritual interpretation?
 
Note that the soul is immaterial; so does not occupy space. Heaven is a state; not a location in the physical universe. Thus the soul can experience Heaven without leaving the body.

Hopefully, someone will expand on that. It is the best I can manage at the moment.
 
Note that the soul is immaterial; so does not occupy space. Heaven is a state; not a location in the physical universe. Thus the soul can experience Heaven without leaving the body.

Hopefully, someone will expand on that. It is the best I can manage at the moment.
I agree with this. In Jesus of Nazareth, I believe, Pope Benedict actually said that God is heaven. He can certainly bring heaven to us by elevating our spirit to Himself, i.e. by the gift of basking in His presence, physical location being a meaningless concept in this case. I believe Paul was probably speaking of himself, BTW.
 
I agree with this. In Jesus of Nazareth, I believe, Pope Benedict actually said that God is heaven. He can certainly bring heaven to us by elevating our spirit to Himself, i.e. by the gift of basking in His presence, physical location being a meaningless concept in this case. I believe Paul was probably speaking of himself, BTW.
Thanks - Joe K.
 
That does sound peculiar, doesn’t it? That part of the soul would remain behind to keep the body functioning… Well, if the soul is allowed to leave the body, as Paul himself said that he did not know, then how is the body kept functioning without the soul?

What would you consider a spiritual interpretation?
Hi Abba, my apologies for the delay in responding. I’ve spent this whole weekend creating a little bit of heaven on earth 😉 👍 …actually, simply providing spiritual empowerment education to Indigenous Australian children, we did it for 24 hours out of 36 over the weekend, very tiring, but NOTHING removes the veils of our animal nature better than seeing the fruits of ones services to mankind. 🙂

My thoughts are as follows:

Firstly, one’s soul does not have to “detach” itself from its metaphysical connection with the body in order to experience a state called “heaven”. It is evident that the attributes of heavenly experience can very much happen in this world of existence, simply by purifying our souls from the stains of idle fancies, vain imaginings, and unseemly conduct. In fact, I can very safely say that I may have experienced a little bit of third heaven while still residing in my physical body on earth, during this weekend’s service campaigns.

It seems clear to me that the first and second heavens refer to physical places, however, one must not mix the reality of physical heavens with the “heavenly state”…the third heaven is the heaven which houses the dwelling place of God. God is NOT a physical entity. Physical entities are all part of His creation. To experience, therefore, an excursion to the third heaven, cannot be deemed a physical transportation to a “place” but rather a spiritual transportation to a “state of being”. A state of being where one is exempt of all “self” and “ego” and inclusive of all “selflessness” and “godliness”

That is my spiritual interpretation, and I hope it helps 🙂

Kam
 
Oecumenius

The words I was in the Spirit indicates that he saw a vision which was not perceptible by the senses nor seen with physical ears or eyes, but with prophetic sense.

St. Andrew of Caesarea

"Having mentioned the place and time, St. John indicates likewise his own condition, in which he was vouchsafed the apocalyptic visions. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, he says. In the language of the Prophets, to be in the Spirit is to be in the spiritual condition of a man who sees, hears and feels not only with his bodily organs, but with all his inward being. This is not a dream, for such a condition occurs also when one is awake. In such an extraordinary condition of his spirit, St. John heard a loud voice as of a trumpet.

Apringius of Beja

He says that he was taken up in the spirit, that is, that he was raised up to the secret things which he was to speak. Moreover, he says that he did not enter into the heights of Heaven in a bodily manner, but that he entered in the spirit, recalling this word, “No one has ascended into Heaven except He who has descended, namely the Son of Man, who is in Heaven.(John:13)” The holy apostle Paul also says that he was taken up, but in what way? He says, “Whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know, God knows.(2Cor. 12:2)” He writes that he had been taken up into ecstasy, in the spirit. But since the day of the Lord is mentioned in this passage, when he says that he had been taken up in the spirit, he is indicating that he had been cleansed of any work of a profane kind.

St. Bede

the Lord’s day. He indicates also a fit time for a spiritual vision, for Scripture is wont to express the reason of things in terms, as, frequently, of the place, or the body, or the air, and in like manner, the time. The Angels, namely, visit Abraham at noon(Gen. 18:1), Sodom in the evening(Gen. 3:8); Adam after midday (Gen. 29:1) was afraid at the voice of the Lord, walking up and down; and Solomon received at night(2Chron. 1:2) the wisdom which it was not to be his to retain. heard. He is first admonished by a voice, that he may direct his attention to the vision.

St. John of the Cross

in the spirit: Manifestly, he was transported above the ways of our natural life through the intervention of God. Such substantial visions, even though transitory, occur rarely or hardly ever, and to only a few. For God imparts this kind of vision only to those who were very strong in the spirit of the Church and God’s law. Though these spiritual substances cannot be unclothed and seen clearly in this life by the intellect, they can nonetheless be felt in the substance of the soul by the most delightful touches and conjunctions. (As. Mt Car 24.3-4)
 
Oecumenius

The words I was in the Spirit indicates that he saw a vision which was not perceptible by the senses nor seen with physical ears or eyes, but with prophetic sense.

St. Andrew of Caesarea

"Having mentioned the place and time, St. John indicates likewise his own condition, in which he was vouchsafed the apocalyptic visions. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, he says. In the language of the Prophets, to be in the Spirit is to be in the spiritual condition of a man who sees, hears and feels not only with his bodily organs, but with all his inward being. This is not a dream, for such a condition occurs also when one is awake. In such an extraordinary condition of his spirit, St. John heard a loud voice as of a trumpet.

Apringius of Beja

He says that he was taken up in the spirit, that is, that he was raised up to the secret things which he was to speak. Moreover, he says that he did not enter into the heights of Heaven in a bodily manner, but that he entered in the spirit, recalling this word, “No one has ascended into Heaven except He who has descended, namely the Son of Man, who is in Heaven.(John:13)” The holy apostle Paul also says that he was taken up, but in what way? He says, “Whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know, God knows.(2Cor. 12:2)” He writes that he had been taken up into ecstasy, in the spirit. But since the day of the Lord is mentioned in this passage, when he says that he had been taken up in the spirit, he is indicating that he had been cleansed of any work of a profane kind.

St. Bede

the Lord’s day. He indicates also a fit time for a spiritual vision, for Scripture is wont to express the reason of things in terms, as, frequently, of the place, or the body, or the air, and in like manner, the time. The Angels, namely, visit Abraham at noon(Gen. 18:1), Sodom in the evening(Gen. 3:8); Adam after midday (Gen. 29:1) was afraid at the voice of the Lord, walking up and down; and Solomon received at night(2Chron. 1:2) the wisdom which it was not to be his to retain. heard. He is first admonished by a voice, that he may direct his attention to the vision.

St. John of the Cross

in the spirit: Manifestly, he was transported above the ways of our natural life through the intervention of God. Such substantial visions, even though transitory, occur rarely or hardly ever, and to only a few. For God imparts this kind of vision only to those who were very strong in the spirit of the Church and God’s law. Though these spiritual substances cannot be unclothed and seen clearly in this life by the intellect, they can nonetheless be felt in the substance of the soul by the most delightful touches and conjunctions. (As. Mt Car 24.3-4)
Thanks.
 
Thank Joe Kelley for your contribution. 🙂 I apologize for my delay in responding.
Note that the soul is immaterial; so does not occupy space. Heaven is a state; not a location in the physical universe. Thus the soul can experience Heaven without leaving the body.

Hopefully, someone will expand on that. It is the best I can manage at the moment.
I still have difficulties understanding how heaven is a state and not a place. Although it is a state or as Kam Fanaian writes at least one of the heavens is a state; doesn’t the sou, although spiritual, still maintains its integrity and uniqueness and in doing so it does not dissipate and relocates? It seems as though people are saying that the souls are where ever they are and there is no movement in the spiritual realm and what changes is the ‘state’ of the soul.

So, I imagine a fish tank full of fishes and when a fish dies it remains in the exact same place but what changes is its state of being? :hmmm:
 
Hi Abba, whilst I enjoyed your fish analogy, I have personally found a “mirror” analogy to be more useful (for me anyway 🙂 )

If you imagine your soul as being a mirror which reflects the light and glory of the Sun, and this manifests itself in your heavenly deeds. The more stains of idle fancy, false imaginings, of sin and materialism that lay on that mirror, the less reflective it is. Meaning therefore that the light of God is clouded from manifesting fully in your person.

It is our daily struggle to “polish” the reflective surface of our soul, and remove from it the stains that are constantly sticking to its surface. The more highly polished our mirror, can be termed “heavenly”, the more stained can be termed “hell-like”…both are states of being.

In this case, with John, it may have been a sudden removal (through the grace of God or otherwise) of all stains of sin/materialism etc from the mirror of John’s soul, propelling him to the heights of delight, ecstasy and heavenliness.

Hope the analogy if of some use for you my friend 🙂

Kam
 
Did he leave his body behind? How could his body survive detached from the soul? Could it be that there were elements of the soul that still remained to keep the body functioning?

Saint Paul wrote:

2 Corinthians 12:21

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows.

I thank you in advance for your assistance.
O Dear Abba, I like your thread very much, I think of your questions; still I do not know the answers, I read your say that you wonder how heaven is a state and not a place, I wondered also. I always believe Heavens are places, in Heavens we can have spirital body and that spirital body also can be glorified physical body. See I made this two threads.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=693960
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=696356

Abba?
Do those words are in 2 Corinthians 12: 2, not in 12:21? 🙂

2 Corinthians 12 :2
I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows.

😊
I like yor threads!
 
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