How we end up in hell or heaven

[RedSoxFan45]

Hello all! Just a little question for debate. Obvious hell and eternal damnation are a concept humans struggle with . We will truly never know the full truth behind it until after death. My question is this… A lot of people say “hell is a choice, a choice to reject god.” Is this true? Or does this take judgment day out of the equation. Does god judge if I go to hell or do I? It’s a true great mystery of the faith and I wonder for opinions on this matter.

 

[SteveGC]

My understanding of it is this…

We ultimately are the choosers of our destiny - either separated or united with God.

God’s judgment is simply the divine action taken to bring about the choice we made.

Those who chose God (and died in a state of grace) go to heaven, with a pitstop in purgatory for cleansing along the way.

Those who chose themselves, go to hell.

Pretty simple I suppose. Unless you try to unpack all the details, that is.

 

[thistle]

Hello all! Just a little question for debate. Obvious hell and eternal damnation are a concept humans struggle with . We will truly never know the full truth behind it until after death. My question is this… A lot of people say “hell is a choice, a choice to reject god.” Is this true? Or does this take judgment day out of the equation. Does god judge if I go to hell or do I? It’s a true great mystery of the faith and I wonder for opinions on this matter.

Committing a mortal sin by definition means you are separating yourself from God and if you die in that state unrepentent then you go to Hell. It is your choice to commit the mortal sin and not repent so you are in effect choosing to go to Hell. You do not get the chance to repent after you die. Saved or damned is determined by the state of your soul at death.

We are subject to two judgements, the Particular Judgement when we die and then the Final Judgement.

Church teaching:

THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT

CCC 1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.

THE LAST JUDGMENT

CCC 1038 The resurrection of all the dead, “of both the just and the unjust,” will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” Then Christ will come “in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

CCC 1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare.The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."

CCC 1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.

CCC 1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them “the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation.” It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the “blessed hope” of the Lord’s return, when he will come “to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed.”

 

[Mijoy2]

Committing a mortal sin by definition means you are separating yourself from God and if you die in that state unrepentent then you go to Hell. It is your choice to commit the mortal sin and not repent so you are in effect choosing to go to Hell. You do not get the chance to repent after you die. Saved or damned is determined by the state of your soul at death.

How do we rectify the fact that this definition, when combined with the definition of mortal sin, essentially means virtual everyone is going to hell?

Qualifier, possibly many regulars in these forums may die free of mortal sin (or maybe better stated, grave sin), but the members of these forums make up a tiny fraction of the Catholic population.

I have given up hope of ever getting a sufficient answer to this question. Unless of course you are of the belief that the vast majority is going to hell. As Augustine was.

This issue I struggle with constantly and often brings me to thebrink of thinking my faith is in vain, and foolish. How can I live in the Peace of Christ, when I have not a single friend or family member who meet this qualification? Let alone myself.

 

[thistle]

How do we rectify the fact that this definition, when combined with the definition of mortal sin, essentially means virtual everyone is going to hell?

Qualifier, possibly many regulars in these forums may die free of mortal sin (or maybe better stated, grave sin), but the members of these forums make up a tiny fraction of the Catholic population.

I have given up hope of ever getting a sufficient answer to this question. Unless of course you are of the belief that the vast majority is going to hell. As Augustine was.

This issue I struggle with constantly and often brings me to thebrink of thinking my faith is in vain, and foolish. How can I live in the Peace of Christ, when I have not a single friend or family member who meet this qualification? Let alone myself.

Jesus did not say following him would be easy but he is the only way to salvation. Are you not even going to try? Did he not die on the cross a terrible death to give you the chance to be saved?

As for how many will go to Hell Jesus already told us this in his own words:

Matt 7:13-14

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.

 

[Mijoy2]

Jesus did not say following him would be easy but he is the only way to salvation. Are you not even going to try? Did he not die on the cross a terrible death to give you the chance to be saved?

As for how many will go to Hell Jesus already told us this in his own words:

Matt 7:13-14

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.

What a joy.

 

[SteveGC]

How do we rectify the fact that this definition, when combined with the definition of mortal sin, essentially means virtual everyone is going to hell?

Qualifier, possibly many regulars in these forums may die free of mortal sin (or maybe better stated, grave sin), but the members of these forums make up a tiny fraction of the Catholic population.

I have given up hope of ever getting a sufficient answer to this question. Unless of course you are of the belief that the vast majority is going to hell. As Augustine was.

This issue I struggle with constantly and often brings me to thebrink of thinking my faith is in vain, and foolish. How can I live in the Peace of Christ, when I have not a single friend or family member who meet this qualification? Let alone myself.

Mijoy

This thinking is an obstacle along your faith journey. An obstacle comprised of scrupulosity and judgment. I may be wrong, mind you. I don’t mean to inject my presumption of how exactly you feel. But your comment reminds me of me not too long ago. And I realized that to be overly concerned with my own state of grace is scrupulous, and is restricting my ability to grow in faith. Likewise, my assumptions and estimations about the state of grace of family members, friends, even complete strangers, borders on the brink of judgment. Not that you’re judging others, like criticizing them in your mind - but I think you are like I was - continuously analyzing their behaviors under the lens of salvation. These things inhibit you - or atleast they inhibited ME. Satan loves that this is happening to you, by the way. It’s oh so subtle and cunning. Knock him and the obstacles away by simply deciding that it is most proper for you to be doing the positive Catholic Christian things (Mass, confession, rosary, prayers, etc) that you already do (hopefully). And for this specific dilemma you have, even though not objectively sinful, it may be appropriate and quite helpful for you to bring it up in confession, for the grace you receive in absolution is your biggest weapon against this thinking, as well as the counsel of a priest. Just food for thought for you. God Bless.

SteveGC

 

[Mijoy2]

Mijoy

This thinking is an obstacle along your faith journey. An obstacle comprised of scrupulosity and judgment. I may be wrong, mind you. I don’t mean to inject my presumption of how exactly you feel. But your comment reminds me of me not too long ago. And I realized that to be overly concerned with my own state of grace is scrupulous, and is restricting my ability to grow in faith. Likewise, my assumptions and estimations about the state of grace of family members, friends, even complete strangers, borders on the brink of judgment. Not that you’re judging others, like criticizing them in your mind - but I think you are like I was - continuously analyzing their behaviors under the lens of salvation. These things inhibit you - or atleast they inhibited ME. Satan loves that this is happening to you, by the way. It’s oh so subtle and cunning. Knock him and the obstacles away by simply deciding that it is most proper for you to be doing the positive Catholic Christian things (Mass, confession, rosary, prayers, etc) that you already do (hopefully). And for this specific dilemma you have, even though not objectively sinful, it may be appropriate and quite helpful for you to bring it up in confession, for the grace you receive in absolution is your biggest weapon against this thinking, as well as the counsel of a priest. Just food for thought for you. God Bless.

SteveGC

Thankn you Steve, for your thoughtful response to my post.
It is others that I continuously fret over. I spend time in these forums, spend much time listening to EWTN, Catholic Answers Radio, reading etc. etc. I understand to a fair degree the doctrine of our faith. However my family members and friends do not. I try to the best of my ability to convey what I have learned but I stop short of coming on so strong that I may trigger a total rebelion. I’d prefer they keep searching at thier own pace and I help subtly and whenever asked (of course).

Our faith may not be in contradiction. However when we disect the teaching of our faith and break it down to it’s most element components, then most all are doomed. Yet we smile and profess this false joy and hope. I could be specific but it would become a very long post.

But one of the most common examples is missing Mass on Sunday.

1. most Catholics miss Mass.
2. Catholics are immune to invincible ignorance
3. missing Mass is a mortal sin
4. dying without repenting of a mortal sin and you go to hell
5. very few who fall into the above catagory will change thier ways before they die.

There are of course many other sins that are repeated often by Catholics that the above would also apply to.

Where is the joy in our faith if the above is true. I’m an engineer, I think mostly in facts, my profession dictates I must. If the above is true, then our hope is in vain, plain and simple. There can be no real joy. How can one look into the eyes of those they love the most in the world, knowing the above is true and have hope or joy? It doesn’t add up, it’s an illogical perspective to maintian.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

Hello all! Just a little question for debate. Obvious hell and eternal damnation are a concept humans struggle with . We will truly never know the full truth behind it until after death. My question is this… A lot of people say “hell is a choice, a choice to reject god.” Is this true? Or does this take judgment day out of the equation. Does god judge if I go to hell or do I? It’s a true great mystery of the faith and I wonder for opinions on this matter.

Hi RedSox,

Rom 1:18ff. answers some of this…that some chose to not honor God, although they knew of Him.

Romans 1

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing to be wise, they became fools, …

God bless you!
-BHM

 

[Ahimsa]

Assume that everyone is going to heaven…except you.

 

[Genesis315]

Assuming everyone is going to Heaven takes love out of the equation. Love is seeking the ultimate good of the other–ultimately, to love someone else is to help them come to salvation by our participation with the love of God. Assuming no one is clinging obstinately to their sins is nothing more uncompassionate indifference. We should have an attitude of loving concern, which neither despairs nor presumes.

Anyway, the fundamental option (yes or no to God) is more complex than those two simple choices–which is why need a divine judge to read our hearts. That choice is present at every moment. Every thought or deed is either consonant with a love for God or not. Faith, repentance, works, sacramental worship, interior disposition, etc. are all part of that choice. God alone knows who truly has sought Him in faithfulness and love and who obstinately clings to his sins–He knows our intentions even better than ourselves.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Everything comes down to God’s Grace and His Mercy.
But that is not to say we should should shrug it off and be irresponsible or worse - fall into despair.

While the way to destruction is wide and many go down that path toward their destruction we have no way of knowing just how many Jesus saves before they plunges irrevocable into the abyss.

This is why prayer is absolutely vital. We must pray always for others to turn away from sin and to convert. The more that turn from sin the easier it is for all of us - less peer pressure to sin., more positive examples of good Christians etc. Good is infectious just as is evil. The Kingdom of Heaven is already started on earth through The Church - which is the bridge from heaven to earth.

We already know ahead of time that a greater good comes out to win in the end - it is preordained. We must not despair but rather trust in God. Trusting means we must have faith and cooperate as fully as we can with God’s grace through the sacraments and try as much as we can to let that grace convert our hearts and minds so we become “Christlike” and start doing Charitable works to build up God’s kingdom. We need to radically change our lives and avoid sinful occasions and social settings where we can be tempted etc. - that’s all part of cooperating with God’s grace.

I admit that it does not appear easy to be a good Christian - especially in this secular era we live in where Christianity is no longer accepted as a given in our culture. We need to get used to the idea that we are in a real spiritual showdown not only for our own souls but for the souls of all our friends and families that has eternal consequences. Everyone should imagine what they would feel like if they knew they were the cause of a friend or spouse etc. going to hell through one’s own participation or influencing to sin. Pray for any that one has ever caused to sin or has sinned with that God will flood them with repentative grace to turn from sin, repent and call on His mercy.

The most difficult thing for Catholics is knowing we have the true faith and also knowing that “to much that is given much is expected”. For us and especially for priests and bishops we are held to a much higher standard. If people look at our bad behaviors while knowing we are Catholics and become “turned off” from Christianity at large or the Catholic faith then we are twice accountable (at least). But the good news is God always forgives when we sincerely approach him for forgivness through sacramental confession. This is why going to confession should be integral with our lifestyle - a thing we do often.

James

 

[michael_quinlan]

No one mentioned Purgatory? We can try the best we can(but we can delude ourselves). Humility helps, but then again we aren’t perfect. What does that leave?

God’s Mercy(which we don’t understand)

Heresy is to believe that everyone is in heaven since God’s Mercy is all-encompassing(mErcy can’t be earned)

So we are back to where we started. Pray, try, be kind to others and yourself, hope, and get a good night sleep. Do the same thing the next day, and the next, and the next, …

 

[SteveGC]

No one mentioned Purgatory?

I thought I did (albeit briefly) in the very first reply to the OP above? I didn’t expand upon that idea though.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

Assume that everyone is going to heaven…except you.

What?