Human Imagination - completely sinful?

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cynic

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I’ve heard this said from other Christians - that fantasy worlds are always based on an alternative reality where there is no God. That fantasy - be it Dungeons and Drangons, or Science Fiction (Star wars, Star Trek) etc - always involves imagining universes where God and his laws don’t apply. Even in Tolkein, the existence of his representation of God (‘Eru’, creator of the Valor if I remember correctly) isn’t particularly evident.

The implication here is that humans find solace in created things as an escape. That that’s incompatible with Faith. I don’t want to believe this but then there’s that passage in Genesis that talks about the "imagination of mans heart’’ being continually evil. What do people think about this?
 
Why is it that people on these boards seem so intent on discovering sin lurking within every human endeavor?!? Fantasy and imagination can be escapes–but they can be full of beauty, fun, peace, creativity–all glorious gifts from God. How much more gray would the world be without the ruminations of Dr. Suess and his created worlds, the good vs. evil battles of Star Wars, the internet which allows us to create fantasy communities like this one and to share our struggles and triumphs?! The gifts and aptitudes are not themselves evil or sinful–it is the use to which we put them that determines the moral value they have in any particular instance.
 
Tolkien was a die-hard Catholic, and not a few parishes have LotR studies. Catholics not only recognize imagination as healthy, we embrace it.

As for the passage, I’d have to see it in context to know what you’re talking about. I can assure you that neither Orthodox Jews nor Catholics/Apostalic Christians view it in the way you seem to be concerned about, and as far as I’m concerned those are the only groups worth looking to when it comes to traditional Judeo-Christian reading of Scripture.

Don’t listen to Protestants on such matters, it will only make you crazy with confusion and misunderstanding of Christian tradition. Leave it to the folks who have been doing it since the time of Christ.

EDIT: Found the passage. You’ll note that in the same passage God “decides” to wipe out all humanity for this very reason, but then “discovers” Noah who contradicts the initial image. It’s pure campfire hyperbole, otherwise the rest of the story doesn’t make any sense at all. If all men truly only imagined evil in the sense you suggest, then Noah wouldn’t have been spared, and no one since.
 
Shameless Bump.

What about recreation in general, I’ve heard people who believe in the idle (or is that idol?) works philosphosy, say that every waking moment that is not spent doing the neccessary duties around work and family, should be spent in worship or working for the Church, witnessng, meditation etc. Recreation, hobbies, interests are all a vain glorification of man and the world, or at the very least use up time better spent doing more important things.

That means reading, sport, hobbies… these are all incompatible with a christian life. Thoughts?
 
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cynic:
I’ve heard this said from other Christians - that fantasy worlds are always based on an alternative reality where there is no God. That fantasy - be it Dungeons and Drangons, or Science Fiction (Star wars, Star Trek) etc - always involves imagining universes where God and his laws don’t apply. Even in Tolkein, the existence of his representation of God (‘Eru’, creator of the Valor if I remember correctly) isn’t particularly evident.

The implication here is that humans find solace in created things as an escape. That that’s incompatible with Faith. I don’t want to believe this but then there’s that passage in Genesis that talks about the "imagination of mans heart’’ being continually evil. What do people think about this?
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Cynic, I do not believe that our imagination is always evil in the absolute sense. I think that, in a hyperbolilc sense, and the scriptures speak in hyperbole all the time, this passage is pointing out that the human being in his fallen state, struggles with concupiscience all the time, that is we are drawn to sin. Other translation of this passage do not even refer to imagination at all. They translate this passage it as the “desire of man’s heart” pointing out what I have discussed above.
Now the human imagination cannot be absolutely evil because it was created by God. It can be used in evil ways but that is not necessary. It can also be used in good ways. Tolkien, when writting his books, saw himself as a “sub-creator” using God’s creation and writting a sort of variation on God’s theme and thus, he believed that he was actually honoring God in his work. I think that if God had not wanted us to use our creative imaginations, then he would not have given them to us. Our creative imagination are part of how man is in the image of God. By the way, I have absolutely no problem with Dungeons and Dragons.
 
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cynic:
I’ve heard this said from other Christians - that fantasy worlds are always based on an alternative reality where there is no God. That fantasy - be it Dungeons and Drangons, or Science Fiction (Star wars, Star Trek) etc - always involves imagining universes where God and his laws don’t apply. Even in Tolkein, the existence of his representation of God (‘Eru’, creator of the Valor if I remember correctly) isn’t particularly evident.

The implication here is that humans find solace in created things as an escape. That that’s incompatible with Faith. I don’t want to believe this but then there’s that passage in Genesis that talks about the "imagination of mans heart’’ being continually evil. What do people think about this?
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BULL-HOCKEY! :mad:
 
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cynic:
I’ve heard this said from other Christians - that fantasy worlds are always based on an alternative reality where there is no God. That fantasy - be it Dungeons and Drangons, or Science Fiction (Star wars, Star Trek) etc - always involves imagining universes where God and his laws don’t apply. Even in Tolkein, the existence of his representation of God (‘Eru’, creator of the Valor if I remember correctly) isn’t particularly evident.

The implication here is that humans find solace in created things as an escape. That that’s incompatible with Faith. I don’t want to believe this but then there’s that passage in Genesis that talks about the "imagination of mans heart’’ being continually evil. What do people think about this?
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Well, one of the things G.K. Chesterton said in The Everlasting Man as a support for Christianity (particularly Catholicism) was that it satisfied both sides of man–the side that sought God through reason (resulting in philosophy) and the side that sought Him through the imagination (resulting in myth). In Catholicism, the story is true, so it satisfies the side of man that seeks God through reason. Furthermore, the truth was a story, so it satisfied the imaginative nature of man.
What about recreation in general, I’ve heard people who believe in the idle (or is that idol?) works philosphosy, say that every waking moment that is not spent doing the neccessary duties around work and family, should be spent in worship or working for the Church, witnessng, meditation etc. Recreation, hobbies, interests are all a vain glorification of man and the world, or at the very least use up time better spent doing more important things.
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That means reading, sport, hobbies… these are all incompatible with a christian life. Thoughts?
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Well, by this standard, John Paul II was wrong to continue skiing after he became Pope (and before becoming Pope, for that matter). Recreation is an essential part of human life. Without it, we would not be able to refresh ourselves and have the strength to continue working. Jesus Himself offered rest to those who were weary. When we engage in “fun” activities, we should do so with a fundamental orientation towards God, thanking him for giving us so much in creation that is good.
As far as I know, there is an essential value in what might be termed “play” beyond just making us more effective at work, but I can’t remember a source for this, and I can’t make the argument on my own. I’m going to leave that to a more capable member of these forums.
 
Grace and Glory:
Well, one of the things G.K. Chesterton said in The Everlasting Man as a support for Christianity (particularly Catholicism) was that it satisfied both sides of man–the side that sought God through reason (resulting in philosophy) and the side that sought Him through the imagination (resulting in myth). In Catholicism, the story is true, so it satisfies the side of man that seeks God through reason. Furthermore, the truth was a story, so it satisfied the imaginative nature of man.

Well, by this standard, John Paul II was wrong to continue skiing after he became Pope (and before becoming Pope, for that matter). Recreation is an essential part of human life. Without it, we would not be able to refresh ourselves and have the strength to continue working. Jesus Himself offered rest to those who were weary. When we engage in “fun” activities, we should do so with a fundamental orientation towards God, thanking him for giving us so much in creation that is good.
As far as I know, there is an essential value in what might be termed “play” beyond just making us more effective at work, but I can’t remember a source for this, and I can’t make the argument on my own. I’m going to leave that to a more capable member of these forums.
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But we don’t enjoy recreation because it’s oriented towards God, or becaue it refreshes us for work. It’s enjoyable for it’s own sake, and as far as I’ve heard, nothing should be done for it’s own sake…everything has to have a greater purpose, nothing can be done simply cause it’s enjoyable.

Even in Tolkein, the principle pleasure comes not from discerning the greater meaning, but from imagining middle earth and it’s peoples. An escape. It may incidentally have a good message, but it’s still entertainment.
 
Some eminent person once said that model railroading is “infantilism”. Hah!

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar!!!

What about fishing?!!! What was it that Isaac Walton said???

Or was it Isaac Newton?
 
I’ve created some fantasy worlds where God was definitely a part of the world, so I guess the answer to the thread’s question is “No”. 🙂
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cynic:
What about recreation in general, I’ve heard people who believe in the idle (or is that idol?) works philosphosy, say that every waking moment that is not spent doing the neccessary duties around work and family, should be spent in worship or working for the Church, witnessng, meditation etc. Recreation, hobbies, interests are all a vain glorification of man and the world, or at the very least use up time better spent doing more important things.

That means reading, sport, hobbies… these are all incompatible with a christian life. Thoughts?
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I don’t think that’s true. People need some leisure to stay physically and emotionally healthy. Even God rested on the seventh day! 🙂

Crazy Internet Junkies Society
Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
 
As a self proclaimed Trekkie, I would like to point out that Star Trek dealt with the existence of God!

One example: the movie Star Trek 5, where Spock’s half-brother hijacks the ship in search of a paradise where God supposidly lives. Kirk and the “away team” meet an alien there claiming to be God, but it is cruel and wants the Enterprise. Captain Kirk then argues with the alien that God (the real one) wouldn’t need a starship, nor would He delight in other’s pain.

And incase that doesn’t prove that I’m a nerd…I mean, that fantsay deals with God sometimes, I shall continue.

C.S. Lewis, who was a friend of J.R. Tolkien’s and who wasn’t even Catholic, wrote a trilogy of books about the existence of life on other planets and how God interacts with those lives differently than with those on Earth. Very interesting.

As for recreation, God gave us talents and not all of them have to do with going to Mass. Some people are really good at leading Bible studies. Other people can play hockey really well. God gave both people their talents and expects them to use them for good. If the hockey guy went around checking random people into walls, that would be using his talent for bad. But playing a game of hockey, thus making himself and his team and the observers happy, is a good use. So, it does lead back to God (gosh darn it! 😛 ). It would be a sin to refuse to use the talents God gave you.

For more Catholic teaching, I would turn away from Protestants and psychologists and look to the Bible and The Catechism. 👍
 
Our imagination is a gift to us from God. We have an obligation to use it in a proper manner. Recreation, whether playing sports, reading, involving ourselves in a hobby etc., is all good - so long as we do not allow what we do to become our god instead of God.

Human beings have a need for recreation. We also have a need to use our imagination - how on earth would most of today’s medicine or technology have been invented is we did not use our imagination.

That being said, neither would have pornography, and other evil things have come about. So, we must learn to control our imagination and use it only for good.

One poster suggested that we do not
enjoy recreation because it’s oriented towards God, or becaue it refreshes us for work. It’s enjoyable for it’s own sake, and as far as I’ve heard, nothing should be done for it’s own sake…everything has to have a greater purpose, nothing can be done simply cause it’s enjoyable.
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If we are orienting our lives to God, making sincere efforts to please Him in all that we do, we will enjoy the recreation because it refreshes us so that we can do more work for God. It’s all in how we are directing our desires.

Imagination is good. Recreation is good. If we use them properly.
 
Joan M:
One poster suggested that we do not If we are orienting our lives to God, making sincere efforts to please Him in all that we do, we will enjoy the recreation because it refreshes us so that we can do more work for God. It’s all in how we are directing our desires.

Imagination is good. Recreation is good. If we use them properly.
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then that isn’t recreation, that is like sleeping or eating, something neccessary. I’m talking about things that aren’t really neccessary, watching movies, reading for entertainment, holidays, travel, fishing…

You hear the idle works stuff on Christian radio, free time should be used for worship or self improvement, but recreaion that isn’t tied to self improvement had no place.
 
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cynic:
then that isn’t recreation, that is like sleeping or eating, something neccessary. I’m talking about things that aren’t really neccessary, watching movies, reading for entertainment, holidays, travel, fishing…

You hear the idle works stuff on Christian radio, free time should be used for worship or self improvement, but recreaion that isn’t tied to self improvement had no place.
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Sleeping is resting, not recreation. Eating is nourishment, not recreation. We need recreation to relax, clear us of stress, prepare us for more work, etc. Recreation, in moderation, of the right type, is necessary.

Of course, there are types of “recreation” that are evil, or, at least not very edifying. But, holidays, travel, fishing, etc. are good for us. Haven’t we all experienced the rejuvenation, the feelings of well-being after a nice vacation, or a visit to the mall, of after reading an entertaining novel? This is part of our human nature. We need recreation as much as we need sleep and food.
 
Ah, but enjoyable reading and movies and whatnot make us happy, which makes us healthier people and closer to God.

I think your problem, Cynic, is that you see something that relates back to God as “work”. But the fact is that all that is good pleases God. Therefore, eating cotton candy makes you happy and makes God happy. Playing ping-pong makes you happy and makes God happy. You just can’t escape God. He’s everywhere :dancing:
 
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