Humanae Vitae Mandate versus HHS Mandate

[Bartolome_Casas]

Of the following, which is worse? The HHS mandate which transgresses on religious liberty rights, or the mass Catholic transgression of the Humanae Vitae Mandate?

Some Catholics have became very publicly agitated about the transgression of rights created by the HHS Mandate, but for 40 years have been extremely silent about the mass transgression of the Humanae Vitae Mandate by the Catholic people.

It probably is an exaggeration to say that 98% of sexually active Catholic adults violate the Humanae Vitae Mandate. But I think we all know that a majority of sexually active Catholic adults violate the Humanae Vitae Mandate, and have been doing so for 40 years. Most of the sexually active adults receiving communion each Sunday are violating the Humanae Vitae Mandate on a regular basis. We all know this, if we know any Catholics at all.

Since the purpose of the Catholic Church is mainly to promote the holiness and salvation of its flock and the whole world, and since the purpose of the Catholic Church is not to lead Catholics into being freedom fighters for political rights, something seems very wrong in what is going on.

Yes, some political leaders have bad motives and bad intentions in promoting the HHS Mandate. I’d say their ultimate goal is public funding for abortions. But we Catholics don’t seem innocent either. We the Catholic People (most of us) have been violating the Humanae Vitae Mandate for 40 years. Our first priority is or should be our personal salvation holiness, not the wickedness of outsiders. Jesus did not commission his apostles to go out and be freedom fighters for political rights. Self-criticism and correction of oneself and one’s own group is usually a higher priority than criticism and attempts to reform outsiders. The Catholic Church is not a political organization! It is not a political pressure group! It is debased and wrong to view Her like that, or to use Her like that!

Yes, it seems appropriate to file lawsuits against the government regarding the HHS Mandate. Then let them work through the court system. Meanwhile, we should also be getting our own house in order on this matter of the Humanae Vitae Mandate.

As Catholics, we call this “examination of conscience.” We are supposed to be self critical!

 

[bargio]

“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.” ~Matthew 7:13

I suppose it’s a good thing that the whole HHS mandate is TRYING to go through in a sense that it does bring about an “examination of consciousness” for all those Catholics who are ignorant on the Church teachings about contraception. Now they can’t claim ignorance during their final judgement.

I agree the Church needs to do a better job at teaching and preaching to its flock what is church teaching, and try to constantly emphasize the PURPOSE of its teaching. Now the Church has its open window, and I’d say that with 100% support from the United States Catholic Bishops and 40+ lawsuits, they’re working on it!

But all that it comes down to is choosing for ourselves whether we want to follow the TRUE teachings of Christ’s Church or go against it. God gave us that choice.

 

[andremiguel]

Of the following, which is worse? The HHS mandate which transgresses on religious liberty rights, or the mass Catholic transgression of the Humanae Vitae Mandate?

Some Catholics have became very publicly agitated about the transgression of rights created by the HHS Mandate, but for 40 years have been extremely silent about the mass transgression of the Humanae Vitae Mandate by the Catholic people.

It probably is an exaggeration to say that 98% of sexually active Catholic adults violate the Humanae Vitae Mandate. But I think we all know that a majority of sexually active Catholic adults violate the Humanae Vitae Mandate, and have been doing so for 40 years. Most of the sexually active adults receiving communion each Sunday are violating the Humanae Vitae Mandate on a regular basis. We all know this, if we know any Catholics at all.

Since the purpose of the Catholic Church is mainly to promote the holiness and salvation of its flock and the whole world, and since the purpose of the Catholic Church is not to lead Catholics into being freedom fighters for political rights, something seems very wrong in what is going on.

Yes, some political leaders have bad motives and bad intentions in promoting the HHS Mandate. I’d say their ultimate goal is public funding for abortions. But we Catholics don’t seem innocent either. We the Catholic People (most of us) have been violating the Humanae Vitae Mandate for 40 years. Our first priority is or should be our personal salvation holiness, not the wickedness of outsiders. Jesus did not commission his apostles to go out and be freedom fighters for political rights. Self-criticism and correction of oneself and one’s own group is usually a higher priority than criticism and attempts to reform outsiders. The Catholic Church is not a political organization! It is not a political pressure group! It is debased and wrong to view Her like that, or to use Her like that!

Yes, it seems appropriate to file lawsuits against the government regarding the HHS Mandate. Then let them work through the court system. Meanwhile, we should also be getting our own house in order on this matter of the Humanae Vitae Mandate.

As Catholics, we call this “examination of conscience.” We are supposed to be self critical!

The just sins 7 times a day, says the Bible in the Old Testament. So…

 

[Bookcat]

Are there some Catholics who commit such mortal sins? Yes. Do some receive unworthily? Yes I imagine so. Should they? No of course not. Are there some who can be in invincible ignorance? Sure I imagine so.

Are we all to be faithful to Christ and thus to his Church and the Teachings of the Church? certainly.

Should all be involved in fighting for our Freedom? Yes.

The Church in the USA is very right to oppose the HHS mandate and to fight for our Religious Liberty.

 

[igor1980]

Are there some Catholics who commit such mortal sins? Yes. Do some receive unworthily? Yes I imagine so. Should they? No of course not. Are there some who can be in invincible ignorance? Sure I imagine so.

I think it is promoted ignorance. If not, why most priests don’t condemn contraceptions in his sermons? How many times anyone here has heard a priest talking on ABC from the pulpit? Just in this forums there are lots of posts on priests condoning the pill for birth control.

Are we all to be faithful to Christ and thus to his Church and the Teachings of the Church? certainly.

Yes, we are. But nobody can force us to do so. Secular laws won’t change anything. A faithfull Catholic will be a faithfull Catholic no matter what happens with HHS mandate.

Should all be involved in fighting for our Freedom? Yes.

I agree with you here. But we(and the Church) also need to be consistent with our actions.

The Church in the USA is very right to oppose the HHS mandate and to fight for our Religious Liberty.

I partially agree. I think that the Church in USA should enforce its own laws in contraception before protesting about civil laws.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

I think that the Church in USA should enforce its own laws in contraception before protesting about civil laws.

I agree.

Or, the Church should just for once and all explain that Catholics do have a right to use the “primacy of conscience” doctrine to make the personal decision to use contraceptives. I think that there is no doubt that in private quite a large number of priests are counseling Catholics to use the “primacy of conscience” doctrine to make the personal decision to use contraceptives. But whether those priests are right in doing that I have never been able to figure out. This whole issues is smothered in fog, darkness, confusion, contradictory statements, and just no statements at all.

 

[Bookcat]

How many times anyone here has heard a priest talking on ABC from the pulpit? Just in this forums there are lots of posts on priests condoning the pill for birth control.

Some confused et al Priests exist sure.(who will soon I imagine no longer be with us here as they age… and go to see God and are replaced by Faithful -unconfused Priests)

Yes, we are. But nobody can force us to do so. Secular laws won’t change anything. A faithfull Catholic will be a faithfull Catholic no matter what happens with HHS mandate.

They will be persecuted…we need to fight for our rights.

I agree with you here. But we(and the Church) also need to be consistent with our actions. We are --and those who do not live as the Church teaches…are well those who do not live as the Church teaches…they need a renewal of the mind

I partially agree. I think that the Church in USA should enforce its own laws in contraception before protesting about civil laws.

The Church does teach the Moral Law that God has given us – one can look in the Catechism, the Compendium, other documents, heck even printed examinations of conscience. Unfortunately many persons are the product of a certain period of time…or influenced by the culture of death. The Church teaches on…and there have always been some Christians who are ignorant or live sinfully contrary to their being Christians…many need conversion of course. Hence the new evangelization!!!

All need a renewal of mind!

But one does not have to get some of the flock converted and informed before facing the State and saying --NO!

 

[Bookcat]

I agree.

Or, the Church should just for once and all explain that Catholics do have a right to use the “primacy of conscience” doctrine to make the personal decision to use contraceptives. I think that there is no doubt that in private quite a large number of priests are counseling Catholics to use the “primacy of conscience” doctrine to make the personal decision to use contraceptives. But whether those priests are right in doing that I have never been able to figure out. This whole issues is smothered in fog, darkness, confusion, contradictory statements, and just no statements at all.

The Church is very clear on this. They may not use contraception.

catholic.com/tracts/birth-control

“We must free ourselves from the hidden lies with which we deceive ourselves. God sees through them… Failure to recognize my guilt, the illusion of my innocence, does not justify me and does not save me, because I am culpable for the numbness of my conscience and my incapacity to recognize the evil in me for what it is.”

–Pope Benedict XVI Encyclical Letter: Spe Salvi

 

[Bookcat]

Compendium --short work from Pope Benedict XVI

1. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

1. What are immoral means of birth control?

2370-2372

Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[AdamP88]

I agree.

Or, the Church should just for once and all explain that Catholics do have a right to use the “primacy of conscience” doctrine to make the personal decision to use contraceptives. I think that there is no doubt that in private quite a large number of priests are counseling Catholics to use the “primacy of conscience” doctrine to make the personal decision to use contraceptives. But whether those priests are right in doing that I have never been able to figure out. This whole issues is smothered in fog, darkness, confusion, contradictory statements, and just no statements at all.

This is merely an argument for moral relativism. The Irish Association for Catholic Priests is attempting to change church teaching here with arguments based on “Primacy of Conscience”.

Contraception is a moral wrong - End of story.

 

[Bookcat]

What is needed? --a renewal of the mind.

"Paul makes this process of “recasting” even clearer by saying that we become new if we transform our way of thinking. What has been introduced here with “way of thinking” is the Greek term “nous”. It is a complex word. It may be translated as “spirit”, “sentiments”, “reason”, and precisely, also by “way of thinking”. Thus our reason must become new. This surprises us. We might have expected instead that this would have concerned some attitude: what we should change in our behaviour. But no: renewal must go to the very core. Our way of looking at the world, of understanding reality all our thought must change from its foundations. The reasoning of the former person, the common way of thinking is usually directed to possession, well-being, influence, success, fame and so forth. Yet in this way its scope is too limited. Thus, in the final analysis, one’s “self” remains the centre of the world. We must learn to think more profoundly. St Paul tells us what this means in the second part of the sentence: it is necessary to learn to understand God’s will, so that it may shape our own will. This is in order that we ourselves may desire what God desires, because we recognize that what God wants is the beautiful and the good. It is therefore a question of a turning point in our fundamental spiritual orientation. God must enter into the horizon of our thought: what he wants and the way in which he conceived of the world and of me. We must learn to share in the thinking and the will of Jesus Christ. It is then that we will be new people in whom a new world emerges.

Paul illustrates the same idea of a necessary renewal of our way of being human in two passages of his Letter to the Ephesians; let us therefore reflect on them briefly. In the Letter’s fourth chapter, the Apostle tells us that with Christ we must attain adulthood, a mature faith. We can no longer be “children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine…” (4: 14). Paul wants Christians to have a “responsible” and “adult faith”. The words “adult faith” in recent decades have formed a widespread slogan. It is often meant in the sense of the attitude of those who no longer listen to the Church and her Pastors but autonomously choose what they want to believe and not to believe hence a do-it-yourself faith. And it is presented as a “courageous” form of self-expression against the Magisterium of the Church. In fact, however, no courage is needed for this because one may always be certain of public applause. Rather, courage is needed to adhere to the Church’s faith, even if this contradicts the “logic” of the contemporary world. This is the non-conformism of faith which Paul calls an “adult faith”. It is the faith that he desires. On the other hand, he describes chasing the winds and trends of the time as infantile. Thus, being committed to the inviolability of human life from its first instant, thereby radically opposing the principle of violence also precisely in the defence of the most defenceless human creatures is part of an adult faith. It is part of an adult faith to recognize marriage between a man and a woman for the whole of life as the Creator’s ordering, newly re-established by Christ. Adult faith does not let itself be carried about here and there by any trend. It opposes the winds of fashion. It knows that these winds are not the breath of the Holy Spirit; it knows that the Spirit of God is expressed and manifested in communion with Jesus Christ. However, here too Paul does not stop at saying “no”, but rather leads us to the great “yes”. He describes the mature, truly adult faith positively with the words: “speaking the truth in love” (cf. Eph 4: 15). The new way of thinking, given to us by faith, is first and foremost a turning towards the truth. The power of evil is falsehood. The power of faith, the power of God, is the truth. The truth about the world and about ourselves becomes visible when we look to God. And God makes himself visible to us in the Face of Jesus Christ. In looking at Christ, we recognize something else: truth and love are inseparable. In God both are inseparably one; it is precisely this that is the essence of God. For Christians, therefore, truth and love go together. Love is the test of truth. We should always measure ourselves anew against this criterion, so that truth may become love and love may make us truthful. "

–Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html

 

[Mary_Fleurdelis]

How many times anyone here has heard a priest talking on ABC from the pulpit?

My parents told me that once the monsignor at our old parish had a sermon on it at every Mass over one weekend. That’s about it. As a female I find this absolutely insulting. What does God think about His women being used as sex machines?

This whole issues is smothered in fog, darkness, confusion, contradictory statements, and just no statements at all.

The issue is smothered in confusion because some pastors don’t want to hurt anyones feelings. The official teachings have been quite clear on it. “Primacy of Conscience” does not mean you can dissent from Church teaching, which is artificially contracepting is wrong. When popes say clearly it is intrinsically evil, it means no. If you are taking medication that has contraceptive effects, you may still take the medication as long as you are not intending or welcoming the contraceptive effects.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

My parents told me that once the monsignor at our old parish had a sermon on it at every Mass over one weekend. That’s about it. As a female I find this absolutely insulting. What does God think about His women being used as sex machines?

The issue is smothered in confusion because some pastors don’t want to hurt anyones feelings. The official teachings have been quite clear on it. “Primacy of Conscience” does not mean you can dissent from Church teaching, which is artificially contracepting is wrong. When popes say clearly it is intrinsically evil, it means no. If you are taking medication that has contraceptive effects, you may still take the medication as long as you are not intending or welcoming the contraceptive effects.

Thanks.

 

[Bookcat]

What is needed? --a renewal of the mind.

"Paul makes this process of “recasting” even clearer by saying that we become new if we transform our way of thinking. What has been introduced here with “way of thinking” is the Greek term “nous”. It is a complex word. It may be translated as “spirit”, “sentiments”, “reason”, and precisely, also by “way of thinking”. Thus our reason must become new. This surprises us. We might have expected instead that this would have concerned some attitude: what we should change in our behaviour. But no: renewal must go to the very core. Our way of looking at the world, of understanding reality all our thought must change from its foundations. The reasoning of the former person, the common way of thinking is usually directed to possession, well-being, influence, success, fame and so forth. Yet in this way its scope is too limited. Thus, in the final analysis, one’s “self” remains the centre of the world. We must learn to think more profoundly. St Paul tells us what this means in the second part of the sentence: it is necessary to learn to understand God’s will, so that it may shape our own will. This is in order that we ourselves may desire what God desires, because we recognize that what God wants is the beautiful and the good. It is therefore a question of a turning point in our fundamental spiritual orientation. God must enter into the horizon of our thought: what he wants and the way in which he conceived of the world and of me. We must learn to share in the thinking and the will of Jesus Christ. It is then that we will be new people in whom a new world emerges.

Paul illustrates the same idea of a necessary renewal of our way of being human in two passages of his Letter to the Ephesians; let us therefore reflect on them briefly. In the Letter’s fourth chapter, the Apostle tells us that with Christ we must attain adulthood, a mature faith. We can no longer be “children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine…” (4: 14). Paul wants Christians to have a “responsible” and “adult faith”. The words “adult faith” in recent decades have formed a widespread slogan. It is often meant in the sense of the attitude of those who no longer listen to the Church and her Pastors but autonomously choose what they want to believe and not to believe hence a do-it-yourself faith. And it is presented as a “courageous” form of self-expression against the Magisterium of the Church. In fact, however, no courage is needed for this because one may always be certain of public applause. Rather, courage is needed to adhere to the Church’s faith, even if this contradicts the “logic” of the contemporary world. This is the non-conformism of faith which Paul calls an “adult faith”. It is the faith that he desires. On the other hand, he describes chasing the winds and trends of the time as infantile. Thus, being committed to the inviolability of human life from its first instant, thereby radically opposing the principle of violence also precisely in the defence of the most defenceless human creatures is part of an adult faith. It is part of an adult faith to recognize marriage between a man and a woman for the whole of life as the Creator’s ordering, newly re-established by Christ. Adult faith does not let itself be carried about here and there by any trend. It opposes the winds of fashion. It knows that these winds are not the breath of the Holy Spirit; it knows that the Spirit of God is expressed and manifested in communion with Jesus Christ. However, here too Paul does not stop at saying “no”, but rather leads us to the great “yes”. He describes the mature, truly adult faith positively with the words: “speaking the truth in love” (cf. Eph 4: 15). The new way of thinking, given to us by faith, is first and foremost a turning towards the truth. The power of evil is falsehood. The power of faith, the power of God, is the truth. The truth about the world and about ourselves becomes visible when we look to God. And God makes himself visible to us in the Face of Jesus Christ. In looking at Christ, we recognize something else: truth and love are inseparable. In God both are inseparably one; it is precisely this that is the essence of God. For Christians, therefore, truth and love go together. Love is the test of truth. We should always measure ourselves anew against this criterion, so that truth may become love and love may make us truthful. "

–Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html

 

[underacloud]

To paraphrase a quote I read once:

One of the greatest things about the Catholic Church is that her teaching has never descended to the level of the practices of her people.

(if anyone knows the correct quote, please let me know)

The case of contraception is particularly apt. While many Catholics contracept, the Church has stood firm, against enormous internal and external pressure, in teaching the moral truth. The Church is charged with proclaiming God’s truth, and does so with the authority of the keys given to St Peter. The Church cannot cooperate with the current HHS mandate without compromising on doctrine.

As for Catholics who contracept, that is a difficult matter of appropriate catechesis (how many of them do it in true ignorance?) and personal responsibility. The Church does not teach at present (as far as I’m aware) that contracepting couples are automatically excommunicated; indeed, our churches may become quite empty if the Church took such a stand. Instead, as with most matters of sin, the Church tends her flock as best she can without excluding them from the fold…such action is appropriate for only the most serious sins, and only then as a disciplinary action (the Church equivalent of the naughty corner), not to expel them.

 

[fix]

I agree.

Or, the Church should just for once and all explain that Catholics do have a right to use the “primacy of conscience” doctrine to make the personal decision to use contraceptives. I think that there is no doubt that in private quite a large number of priests are counseling Catholics to use the “primacy of conscience” doctrine to make the personal decision to use contraceptives. But whether those priests are right in doing that I have never been able to figure out. This whole issues is smothered in fog, darkness, confusion, contradictory statements, and just no statements at all.

The Church is very clear:

When it is a matter of the moral norms prohibiting intrinsic evil, there are no privileges or exceptions for anyone. It makes no difference whether one is the master of the world or the “poorest of the poor” on the face of the earth. Before the demands of morality we are all absolutely equal.

 

[andremiguel]

I agree.

Or, the Church should just for once and all explain that Catholics do have a right to use the “primacy of conscience” doctrine to make the personal decision to use contraceptives. I think that there is no doubt that in private quite a large number of priests are counseling Catholics to use the “primacy of conscience” doctrine to make the personal decision to use contraceptives. But whether those priests are right in doing that I have never been able to figure out. This whole issues is smothered in fog, darkness, confusion, contradictory statements, and just no statements at all.

I think that there is not much fog:
It is better not to use the pill than use it.
Using condoms is like taking the shower with an umbrella.
IUD may be abortive.
Sterilization is wrong.
Abortion for contraception is inadmissible.
The theory is clear.

Now, we cannot put this God Given orders aside from the others. People sin in others: people rob, kill, make adultery, do know worship God, do not love their neighbors.

And people violate the God Given orders about reproduction.

When people go against God Given orders, it is called sin.

Now, let us not confuse what people do with what God wants. It is not because ( if ) 99% of people steal that God wants people to steal…