Damascus
I believe rbarcia is not Catholic and so does not need to explain Mary’s sinlessness since he or she does not believe it.
This is my first post because the thread was locked when I first saw it.
I would say this to Gregory Palmas.
To sin is to become less than what we should be. That is true. It may even be said that in sinning we are less than what we are truly supposed to be. In sinning we become closer and closer to animals, rather than rational beings. That is all true.
However, we cannot become simply animals. No matter how much we sin, we cannot get rid of the things that make us human, intellect and will. There is a reason that the Catholic Church has the term fallen nature. In having fallen nature, we are not what we should be. Only four people did not have fallen nature according to Catholic belief, and these were Adam, Eve, Jesus and Mary. Everyone else has a nature corrupted by sin.
What makes a human? I would say it is that we are made in the image and likeness of God. What does that mean. I would say it means we have an intellect and a will, which God has. When we sin, we enslave our will to that of Satan, but it does not mean we do not have a will. When we sin, we dull our intellect with the lies of Satan, but we still have one. We harm the gift that God gave us, but we do not destroy it.
If we say that sinners are subhuman, though in certain respects true (they are acting in a matter less than their calling) we are taking away their rights as human beings made in the Image and Likeness of God. Just as someone could say that a Bishop was acting beneath himself when caught in a scandal, that does not make the Bishop any less of a Bishop.
I think the distinction needs to be made between what humans should be, and what humans are. Humans should be what we were in the beginning, sinless, in total communion with God, In total communion with each other. Look out the window if you think that is what humans are.
Now saying that, it seems this whole thing was started because you believed some were talking about original sin as an excuse. Let me make it very clear, it is not.
I am a sinner, you can not make me sin, My fallen human nature cannot make me sin, even Satan himself cannot make me sin. Only I can make me sin.
However, the idea of original sin, along with most idea’s on modesty, and on teaching and on many other things are to deal with the real life fact, that even though no one can make us sin, we can be tempted in many different ways, and one of these ways is from within.
Jesus spoke on leading others astray, and said it would be better that a millstone were tied around the persons neck than lead a little one astray. But no one can make that little one sin, so what is Jesus talking about? What about when He said that nothing that enters a man is unclean, but what goes out is what defiles him. If a sinner is subhuman, than what could come out of a “man” to defile him? Surely if he sinned he would no longer be a man, correct.
I apologize if some of these points have been made before or if I were too forward with my wording, I saw the thread was no longer locked, and was eager to respond.
A lone Raven
