Human's don't operate according to their natures?

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fakename

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If things operate according to their essences, then mankind operates according to its essence (assuming there is no outside violence). But to operate according to essence is basically to act morally. So if that’s true, then why is it possible for humans to act badly?
 
The very philosophical question that leaves no possible reason to doubt our free will!

Thats an excellent question, I’m going to remember this for atheist debates.
 
In a sense we do always opperate in accordance with our natures, but part of that includes free will. It’s part of our nature for our choices to be truely voluntary, and for those choices to be choices of goods, which they always are (though sometimes the choice excludes greater goods, which is where moral evil can come in).

When we speak of acting out of accord with our natures, we mean out of accord with what would be rational for a human creature to do, considering what human nature is.

Technically other creatures can do this too. When a dog eats chocolate it is doing something which is not rational for it to do, but it doesn’t realize this and even if it did, it is a slave of its impulses. There is thus no moral evil involved when a non-human animal acts out of accord with reason, because it is not a free, rational creature. Human beings are rational creatures and we do have free will so when behave in an irrational way we are morally culpable for the internal injustice of not subjecting a lower facutly (will) to a higher faculty (intellect). But the action itself is not in accord with our nature the way a dog eating chocolate not in accord with its nature, not like if the dog (or the human) suddenly sprouted wings and few into the sky (barring a supernatural miracle of course, which by definition exceeds nature)
 
If things operate according to their essences, then mankind operates according to its essence (assuming there is no outside violence). But to operate according to essence is basically to act morally. So if that’s true, then why is it possible for humans to act badly?
You are assuming that acting “badly” is not something that is ever in accord with human nature. It might be perfectly rational to act badly and being rational is a part of human nature.
 
You are assuming that acting “badly” is not something that is ever in accord with human nature. It might be perfectly rational to act badly and being rational is a part of human nature.
To act badly is irrational. Moral evil and volutary irrationality are practically synonyms.
 
How does one characterize free choice in regard to our nature and our last end?
(or of any creature?)

Surely we don’t have the ability to defy our nature, so how can the ability to choose evil be reconciled with human nature?

I think it may go like this: truth and goodness exist in grades, human nature (rationality) is therefore like a magnet that is attracted to many different truths and so it is in keeping with man’s definition to be able to choose evil (lesser goods over higher ones).
 
To act badly is irrational. Moral evil and volutary irrationality are practically synonyms.
Depends how you define “badly”.

If I’m starving and knock you on the head to get your food, because you are a mean so and so and wont give me any, aren’t I acting rationally? And aren’t you the one being being morally reprehensible?
 
Depends how you define “badly”.

If I’m starving and knock you on the head to get your food, because you are a mean so and so and wont give me any, aren’t I acting rationally? And aren’t you the one being being morally reprehensible?
Taking food you need from someone with no good reason to withhold it is not stealing, it’s taking what is your own, since the moral right to that food has already passed from its former owner to you. Whether knocking the person on the head to get that food is justifiable in that situation obviously depends on many details of the situation. If it is not justified then to do it is irrational and evil (acting badly), while if it is justified it is rational and good (acting well).
 
How does one characterize free choice in regard to our nature and our last end?
(or of any creature?)

Surely we don’t have the ability to defy our nature, so how can the ability to choose evil be reconciled with human nature?

I think it may go like this: truth and goodness exist in grades, human nature (rationality) is therefore like a magnet that is attracted to many different truths and so it is in keeping with man’s definition to be able to choose evil (lesser goods over higher ones).
Again, one has to distinguish between what human nature makes possible and what is rational for a creature with a human nature to do. For a creature with a vulturine nature it is both possible and rational to eat carrion, while for a creature with a human nature it is possible but not rational.

With regard to our last end (telos), we know even from non-human nature that not everything reaches that which its internal nature is ordered towards. Not every acorn becomes a sexually mature oak tree- indeed only a tiny minority of them do, yet nothing supernatural has happened to the other acorns or sapling oak trees that did not reach maturity. Or to go back to animal behavior, a puppy is obviously “designed” to turn into an adult dog, but when it eats a fatal amount of chocolate it thwarts this natural end. In one sense the puppy acted not in accord with its nature, but in another sense it acted entirely in accord with it. Obviously every such non-human example is imperfect since these are not free creatures, but it establishes the distinction I wish to make between two ways something can be in or out of accord with something’s nature.

When it comes to humans, when we commit a sin, especially a mortal sin, we act in a way not in accord with the final end to which we are ordered, but nevertheless we act within the bounds of what our human nature permits. When we speak of something being according to a creature’s nature we could mean it in either sense, so we could say sin is in accord with human nature or is not, depending on whether we have in mind a human being’s natural abilities or his telos.

When it comes to being attracted to different goods, the idea you’ve expressed has a lot of history in Catholic theology, but I’m not the biggest fan myself at least without some caveats. It’s true we always choose goods, but the language of goods “pulling” the will towards them can be problematic in my opinion. It can lead to the idea that whatever good is perceived to be the greatest will be the one that pulls the hardest, and so will invariably be the one chosen, and this position has indeed been taken by many Catholics throughout history. Since we recognize different degrees of goodness with our intellects, that would mean, first of all, that the will is always entirely faithful to the intellect, which is not only counterintuitive based on personal experience but would seem to eliminate any basis for moral fault, since you would always be doing what you honestly thought was best.

Dante (apparently basing himself on Aquinas if one can trust the footnotes in my copy of The Divine Comedy) tried to get around this implication by saying that the will can choose how the intellect is applied, and so if the intellect is applied badly so as to misjudge the relative value of different goods it is still the person’s fault. But it seems to me that this doesn’t work since the choices the will makes regarding the application of the intellect is based on prior information gained by the intellect about the goodness of knowledge and understanding, and the pull of this perceived good would presumably be just as inexorable as any other.

This idea could also produce some serious problems when one applies it to the relationship between grace and free will, leading to an idea of irresistible grace for the elect (grace sufficiently strong to pull their wills to God) and insufficient grace for the reprobate (grace not sufficiently strong to pull their wills to God).

I would propose instead that instead of the goods perceived by the intellect actively pulling a passive will this way or that, we should think of the goods as the passive party and the will as the active one. The intellect presents various perceived goods and the will can choose from among any of them. By nature it can’t choose evil simply for the sake of evil, it always does choose some good, but it can choose lesser goods that exclude greater ones. Such a choice defies reason because it disregards the hierarchy of goods revealed by the intellect, and so it produces an internal injustice, with the will refusing to submit to its natural master (so to speak), the intellect. This internal injustice is the essence of moral evil, and when it extends to the rejection of God in favor of finite goods it thwarts man from his telos.
 
How is it that a nature has two aspects (the part that is led to the end and the part that is not)? Can you explain this from a purely metaphysical POV for instance, if the soul has two aspects, why doesn’t this create two potentialities in the soul and so, since every potentiality must actualize, why does it not create two final causes?
 
If things operate according to their essences, then mankind operates according to its essence (assuming there is no outside violence). But to operate according to essence is basically to act morally. So if that’s true, then why is it possible for humans to act badly?
… my dear friend ,

… my own theory brief : morality only exists outside reality in this delusion as we lost reality or the garden of eden thru the fall , in reality there is no right or wrong , good or evil , sin or virtue , i know it sounds bad , but that’s an unfallen world , this is a world the opposite of reality in varied ways throughout it , being bad is just making mistakes which is normal and just human , the prob is man is supposed to be pure love and only able to do gods will which is love , he has no conscience in reality by the way , and with the preternatural gifts and extreme natural inclination to love and massive problem solving abilities and serious even miraculous relationship with god he makes only little insignificant mistakes , harmless ones , and learns very quick …

… here man and his world are the opposite of what they should be in varied ways so it’s a complete mess , because adam and eve listened to satan as he told them knowing good and evil they will be like god and did as satan said , god is punishing us by making man and his whole world good and evil , every single thought man has is classified good or evil , it can be many names , correct or incorrect , perfector imperfect , beautiful or ugly , etc etc etc we classify all as good or evil , but this is not reality , this is a punishment from god , we divide all as good or evil but it’s not reality at all , and this forbidden knowledge of good and evil came from satan and we should not trust it at all , if it were any good god would have given it to us and not made it a punishment with it …

… but along with that man wants to be god so god is rubbing our noses in the knowledge of good and evil , and man is trying to be god and he may get sick of it eventually i hope , and satan rules over our world and man so much to rub mans nose into listening to satan instead of himself god , but although this delusion is not really real and temporary – sin , evil , demons , death , hell etc are all very real experiences here , so delusion or not we must play gods game as he’s established it …

…we will get reality back soon i hope by the way , and the big reasons god threw us out of reality into the delusion is because evil or imperfection cannot be allowed to exist or it reflects on the creator and any imperfection in nthe creator means he ceases to exist , the demons were cast into the opposite of their reality heaven into hell too , but also god cannot become a man and suffer and die to redeem us in reality but in this delusion he can and has , god does everything for infinite reasons though , that’s my own theory very briefly …

… may god bless and love you 👍🙂 ,

… john …
 
Taking food you need from someone with no good reason to withhold it is not stealing, it’s taking what is your own, since the moral right to that food has already passed from its former owner to you. Whether knocking the person on the head to get that food is justifiable in that situation obviously depends on many details of the situation. If it is not justified then to do it is irrational and evil (acting badly), while if it is justified it is rational and good (acting well).
Thank you, you have made my point for me.

It all depends on how we define “acting badly”. In your next post after the one I am answering here, you outlined a case for how rational behaviour occurs when a being acts towrds its proper ends. That is correct and well stated. However, my point is that there can be times when we ‘act badly" and are still acting towards our proper ends as human beings. What I’m getting at is that the defintion of “badly” does not always equal the defintion of what is “irrational”. It is not always irrational to steal, or even kill, yet those behaviours are described as "bad’. “Bad” is not always “evil” and not always in contradiction to human nature, as the OP has suggested.
 
How is it that a nature has two aspects (the part that is led to the end and the part that is not)? Can you explain this from a purely metaphysical POV for instance, if the soul has two aspects, why doesn’t this create two potentialities in the soul and so, since every potentiality must actualize, why does it not create two final causes?
It’s not that a nature has two different aspects, it’s that when we say something violates nature we might mean two very different things by that phrase- either the thing is truly impossible according to the nature of the thing or it is possible according to that nature but nonetheless hinders the attainment of the final end the creature is ordered towards by its nature.

Where do you get the idea that every potentiality must actualize? Does every acorn become an oak tree? Does every person only have the potential to do what he or she actually does in life and nothing else, if they had chosen differently or met with different external circumstances?
 
If things operate according to their essences, then mankind operates according to its essence (assuming there is no outside violence). But to operate according to essence is basically to act morally. So if that’s true, then why is it possible for humans to act badly?
To act badly is to act outside of the will of God. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represented that very option for man. Mans right use of his freedom is to recognize and embrace Gods will and the wisdom it flows from. But man, himself, lacks the wisdom of God, and that’s sort of a Catch-22-it’s man’s flaw-he *can’t *be as perfect as God; in fact, man’s imperfect enough to actually think he doesn’t need God. But he can learn, in this life, with Gods help, of his need for God and for His wisdom, becoming at least wise enough to acquiesce on this point and thus bow to his Creator’s superiority, like the Prodigal Son returning home
 
Thank you, you have made my point for me.

It all depends on how we define “acting badly”. In your next post after the one I am answering here, you outlined a case for how rational behaviour occurs when a being acts towrds its proper ends. That is correct and well stated. However, my point is that there can be times when we ‘act badly" and are still acting towards our proper ends as human beings. What I’m getting at is that the defintion of “badly” does not always equal the defintion of what is “irrational”. It is not always irrational to steal, or even kill, yet those behaviours are described as "bad’. “Bad” is not always “evil” and not always in contradiction to human nature, as the OP has suggested.
Then your definition of “bad” is not one I understand or would personally use. To me “bad” is just another way of saying “evil.”
 
Well my argument definitely hinges on the idea that all potencies have to become actual so let me explain that: basically everything is designed to be some unique thing and not something else (or else numerically one soul would suffice for two distinct things -1 soul for two beings). Also everything is designed with a purpose. Given this, the whole universe is designed such that the potential must actualize.

So I don’t see how a thing can not at least tend towards its end by the act of its nature.
But we see that some people don’t even tend towards their end -we don’t all find God eventually.

Plus is it possible that some things don’t have final causes? That would be a problem for my argument.
 
fakename,

It might help to distinguish a natural end from a supernatural end. Every nature has within itself the power to reach its natural end (in man, probably something like intellectual happiness, which ends in the contemplation of the Godhead). But not every nature does reach its natural end, as Aelred pointed out (do all acorns become oak trees?).

Aelred also points out that whatever the will wills, it wills under the aspect or for the sake of good. In much Catholic theology, it is thought impossible that the will should will anything under the aspect or for the sake of evil. There have been substantial challenges to this from Medieval philosophers centering on free will and man’s culpability for sin. Its defenders, however, typically insist that man does evil by directing the will away from the absolute good and towards some proximate good, failing to subject the will to reason – often being diverted by the passions, which are not properly received by the virtues. Or something like that; it seems to get a bit muddled to me.

Anyway, the supernatural end of man – the beatific vision – transcends man’s natural end. It’s a gift from God which elevates man’s nature (how you understand this elevation is open to debate). But God does no injustice in withholding this gift from all men, because all men still have it within their own power to achieve their natural telos.
 
I would just like to add, that the vision of God is both the natural and supernatural ends -the latter especially now since after Adam and Eve’s sin, it takes divine help to get man to the Beatific Vision.

More to the topic however; my real question now lays in this: “if something doesn’t reach its natural end, then is it not true that not everything was designed for a purpose; things were designed in vain”?
 
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