Humans having children and Hell

[LittleSoldier]

Yes, they are, such as His parables about “Hell” based on Jerusalem’s public garbage dump, where trash is destroyed, not tortured.

Having a kid die is far worse than having a kid that is tortured for eternity?!?

People who lack your beliefs would go to Hell unwittingly. If God doesn’t do the condemning, then where does the torment come from?

Nobody goes to hell unwittingly. Anyone who goes to hell goes of his own choice. God does not condemn us - we condemn ourselves. The torment comes from the person himself; knowing that the choices he freely made during his life were the wrong choices and that his actions showed his lack of love for God and his fellow human beings. He is judged by God and there is no better judge because God is omniscient. But he is judged by God based on the choices he made and his actions.

I can’t think of anything more painful than knowing I had the chance to live with God in heaven and chose not to, even though I was warned, even though I was shown Truth, even though I was shown Love.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I want to apologize for entering this thread so late. I’ll catch up on the posts as quickly as I can.

 

[tonyrey]

The words of Jesus are quite clear…

In the parable about Lazarus the rich man was not destroyed. The figurative language of Jesus about the everlasting fire in Hell makes it clear that self-inflicted isolation from God can continue indefinitely…

Speaking for myself, not the church, I don’t believe in eternal torment

In that case you cannot believe in the reality of evil or free will.

No response! .

We die, we sleep in hades, the grave, until the resurrection. We are raised to eternal life if we are saved else we are destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

God is the Creator not the Destroyer. Would you destroy your children simply because they reject you?

No response!

So, your biggest risk as a parent is having a miserable kid who, in the end, is destroyed.

That would be far worse than having a miserable kid who rejects you but gets pleasure and satisfaction out of living for himself.

No response!

Perhaps their most miserable moment will come at the moment of judgement when they realize what they’ve done.

No one goes to hell unwittingly. They realize full well what they are doing; otherwise their fate would be unjust. They aren’t condemned by God; they condemn themselves:
“Hallowed be my name, **my **kingdom come, my will be done - even if it’s in hell!”

No response!

That would be far worse than having a miserable kid who rejects you but gets pleasure and satisfaction out of living for himself. Having a kid die is far worse than having a kid that is tortured for eternity?!?

The misery of hell is **self-inflicted… **

No one goes to hell unwittingly. They realize full well what they are doing; otherwise their fate would be unjust. They aren’t condemned by God; they condemn themselves:

People who lack your beliefs would go to Hell unwittingly.

How do you know that ?

If God doesn’t do the condemning, then where does the torment come from?

Their own selfishness, lust for power and alienation from others.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

In the parable about Lazarus the rich man was not destroyed. The figurative language of Jesus about the everlasting fire in Hell makes it clear that self-inflicted isolation from God can continue indefinitely…

The Hell Jesus mentioned is literally a garbage dump where trash is destroyed, not tortured. But, he was not talking literally, so why would you take it literally that there is a rich man in Hell, in torment and talking with Abraham? Instead of trying to take from it literal details of the nature of Hell, you should be looking for the lessons of the parable. Riches in this life means nothing in the afterlife. Those who reject Jesus have also rejected Moses and the Prophets. Etc.

If you wish to think Jesus is teaching about Hell, then the story still contradicts you. The rich man was being tortured. This was not merely isolation from God. And, what do you mean by “indefinitely”, did you perhaps notice that there is nothing about eternal suffering in this parable?

Speaking for myself, not the church, I don’t believe in eternal torment

In that case you cannot believe in the reality of evil or free will.

I don’t see a connection. How does my belief in the destruction of evil people lead you to conclude that I don’t believe in evil people?

So, your biggest risk as a parent is having a miserable kid who, in the end, is destroyed.

That would be far worse than having a miserable kid who rejects you but gets pleasure and satisfaction out of living for himself.

Again, I don’t follow you. It looks like you are saying a miserable kid being destroyed is far worse than having a disobedient kid who is happy? Do you mean an evil kid who happy has destroyed somehow has come out ahead? I don’t believe evil people are ever very happy, and to whatever degree that they are happy, it will pail compared to the misery they’ll feel on judgement day. But, even if they are delightfully happy, so what?

No one goes to hell unwittingly. They realize full well what they are doing; otherwise their fate would be unjust. They aren’t condemned by God; they condemn themselves:

How can someone who doesn’t believe in Hell go there wittingly? Wittingly means with knowledge and deliberation.

The misery of hell is self-inflicted…

From what scripture, or even Church teaching, do you arrive at this conclusion? Not from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where flames are being applied to the rich man.

Their own selfishness, lust for power and alienation from others.

So, the wicked spend eternity in hell suffering because of their selfishness, lust for power, and alienation? You’d think that after a few billions years of scorching pain from a lust to rule Hell, they’d give up on the idea.

 

[Betterave]

The Hell Jesus mentioned is literally a garbage dump where trash is destroyed, not tortured. But, he was not talking literally, so why would you take it literally that there is a rich man in Hell, in torment and talking with Abraham? Instead of trying to take from it literal details of the nature of Hell, you should be looking for the lessons of the parable. Riches in this life means nothing in the afterlife. Those who reject Jesus have also rejected Moses and the Prophets. Etc.

I don’t want to read too much into the parable, but I certainly think you miss the point when you imply that Jesus referred to Gehenna in order to draw our attention to the destruction of trash.

How can someone who doesn’t believe in Hell go there wittingly? Wittingly means with knowledge and deliberation.

I suggest reviewing the thread. The issue of knowledge and capacity has already been discussed a good deal and you seem to be ignoring some of the clarifications that have already been made.

So, the wicked spend eternity in hell suffering because of their selfishness, lust for power, and alienation? You’d think that after a few billions years of scorching pain from a lust to rule Hell, they’d give up on the idea.

Sure, you might think that - but you also might be wrong about it.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

I don’t want to read too much into the parable, but I certainly think you miss the point when you imply that Jesus referred to Gehenna in order to draw our attention to the destruction of trash.

Jesus cold have said “Hades”, " Tartarus", or some such thing in his PARABLE, but he said Gehenna, the place where trash is destroyed by fire.

The defenders of Hell don’t believe in Hell, either. You spend your time trying to deny that it’s judgement, but that it’s freely chosen. You spend your time trying to deny that suffering is inflicted upon the person in Hell, but that the suffering is self-inflected. This is all completely unbiblical - and no doubt your way of attempting to reconcile the pagan absurdity of an eternity of torture for whatever happens in the brief moment in eternity that we are in this world.

Hades, aka Hell, is the grave. Everyone goes there until the resurrection. There is no suffering there. There is no awareness there. This is what the Bible teaches. Jesus went to hades, not because he took on the sins of the world, not because he preached down there, but because all the dead go there.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Jesus cold have said “Hades”, " Tartarus", or some such thing in his PARABLE, but he said Gehenna, the place where trash is destroyed by fire.

And your point is…?

The defenders of Hell don’t believe in Hell, either. You spend your time trying to deny that it’s judgement, but that it’s freely chosen. You spend your time trying to deny that suffering is inflicted upon the person in Hell, but that the suffering is self-inflected. This is all completely unbiblical - and no doubt your way of attempting to reconcile the pagan absurdity of an eternity of torture for whatever happens in the brief moment in eternity that we are in this world.

It is judgment but it is judgment based upon one’s actions that are freely chosen. And that is why we say the suffering is self-inflicted. A person who is damned to hell knows not only that he can never be with God but that it’s his own fault and that it is just.

Yes, it is a brief period on earth. Yet you, just like everyone else, is given ample opportunity to choose or reject God via free will. How many chances do you want? Two lifetimes on earth? A hundred? A billion? An eternity to “get it right?” God is merciful. He will forgive any sin except a sin against the Holy Spirit, which is a mortal sin for which the sinner refuses to atone. God is Love. That is biblical. He loves us so much that He not only created us but He lets us choose whether we will accept His love or reject it. Those who enter hell rejected His love. It’s not a pagan absurdity. It is Truth.

Hades, aka Hell, is the grave. Everyone goes there until the resurrection. There is no suffering there. There is no awareness there. This is what the Bible teaches. Jesus went to hades, not because he took on the sins of the world, not because he preached down there, but because all the dead go there.

No. Everyone who died went there. There is more than one hell, Steel Pinwheel. One is for the eternally damned. One was for those who were righteous but who could not enter heaven because the gates of heaven were closed (what the Church calls limbus patrum).

Jesus came to earth as a human, allowed Himself to be tortured, mocked, and to carry His own cross that He was nailed to and suffered a horrible death. He did this to fulfill the prophecies; to re-open the gates of heaven. Man (as Adam) sinned and God-Man (as Jesus the Christ) triumphed. When Jesus died He descended into hell - not the hell of the eternally damned but the hell of the righteous. He went there and gave them the good news - that the gates of heaven were being re-opened. They were in hell because they were separated from God. When Jesus went to that hell they were no longer without God.

The bible is the Word of God but it is not the only Word of God. The Church, founded by Jesus on Peter, has never had the gates of hell prevail against her and she never will. Peter was given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and the Church was given the power to bind and loose on earth that which would be bound and loosed in heaven. What the Church teaches is Truth. What the Church teaches is the Word of God and we know this to be true because the Church is the Body of Christ.

 

[Betterave]

Jesus cold have said “Hades”, " Tartarus", or some such thing in his PARABLE, but he said Gehenna, the place where trash is destroyed by fire.

…which is irrelevant.

The defenders of Hell don’t believe in Hell, either. You spend your time trying to deny that it’s judgement, but that it’s freely chosen. You spend your time trying to deny that suffering is inflicted upon the person in Hell, but that the suffering is self-inflected. This is all completely unbiblical - and no doubt your way of attempting to reconcile the pagan absurdity of an eternity of torture for whatever happens in the brief moment in eternity that we are in this world.

Apparently you’ve confused me with some other poster(s). I never said any of what you attribute to me here.

Hades, aka Hell, is the grave. Everyone goes there until the resurrection. There is no suffering there. There is no awareness there. This is what the Bible teaches. Jesus went to hades, not because he took on the sins of the world, not because he preached down there, but because all the dead go there.

Nice bunch of assertions; not very convincing.

 

[tonyrey]

In the parable about Lazarus the rich man was not destroyed. The figurative language of Jesus about the everlasting fire in Hell makes it clear that self-inflicted isolation from God can continue indefinitely…

I don’t take it literally. I interpret it differently

Instead of trying to take from it literal details of the nature of Hell, you should be looking for the lessons of the parable.

Precisely. That why Hell is not a place of destruction.

If you wish to think Jesus is teaching about Hell, then the story still contradicts you. The rich man was being tortured. This was not merely isolation from God.

Not all the details of a parable should be taken literally.

And, what do you mean by “indefinitely”, did you perhaps notice that there is nothing about eternal suffering in this parable?

One parable does not convey **all **the facts… What about the others you have ignored?

How does my belief in the destruction of evil people lead you to conclude that I don’t believe in evil people?

Because they cease to exist! They escape scotfree - and, worse still, they never have a chance to atone.

So, your biggest risk as a parent is having a miserable kid who, in the end, is destroyed.

That is what you believe!?

That would be far worse than having a miserable kid who rejects you but gets pleasure and satisfaction out of living for himself.

Exactly!

It looks like you are saying a miserable kid being destroyed is far worse than having a disobedient kid who is happy?

How on earth do you reach that conclusion?

Do you mean an evil kid who happy has destroyed somehow has come out ahead?

?

I don’t believe evil people are ever very happy, and to whatever degree that they are happy, it will pail(?) compared to the misery they’ll feel on judgement day.

I agree with you. That is why they shouldn’t be destroyed!

No one goes to hell unwittingly. They realize full well what they are doing; otherwise their fate would be unjust. They aren’t condemned by God; they condemn themselves:

How can someone who doesn’t believe in Hell go there wittingly? Wittingly means with knowledge and deliberation.

When they die they know full well what the options are…

The misery of hell is self-inflicted…

From what scripture, or even Church teaching, do you arrive at this conclusion? Not from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where flames are being applied to the rich man.

“Forgive us our trespasses** as** we forgive…”

So, the wicked spend eternity in hell suffering because of their selfishness, lust for power, and alienation? You’d think that after a few billions years of scorching pain from a lust to rule Hell, they’d give up on the idea.

There is no time or scorching pain. Genuine free will implies the possibility of the **indefinite **rejection of God…