Hypothetical scenario

[wanderlust]

I’ll begin this thread by saying that, in no way, am I trying to be offensive or am I trying to ridicule anyone. That being said, this could still come off as just that.

I have a question that I want to direct at all of you who fully embrace the Church’s teachings on sexuality and family planning. That is, if the Church changed its position on any of the issues about which it is particularly strident (birth control and priestly celibacy come to mind), how would you react?

It’s something I wonder about because on one hand, those of you who accept these teaching generally accept that the Church is right in all matters of faith and morality. However, you’re also individuals with your own minds who have, for any number of reasons, adopted that worldview as your own.

To put this into context, I’m a lapsed Catholic and an enthusiastic supporter of birth control and gay marriage. So, it’s pretty apparent that I reject papal infallibility. So, for me, it doesn’t cause any upheaval for my worldview if the church changes tack.

What about you who embrace the Church’s authority?

 

[opusAquinas]

Priestly celibacy is not dogma but a tradition. It can change and I suspect it will. The latin rite church will become more like the Eastern Catholic Churches.

The birth control stance will not change because this contravenes the natural purpose of the sexual act which is procreation.

Gay marriage legalization is a necessary evil as is the legalization of abortion. Gays “adopt” their lover for inheritance reasons etc. This is evil - incest. Without legal abortion woman would use coat hangars and back alleys etc. Murdering both mother and child.

The homosexual act is evil. It is a sin. Just as acts of pride, lust, jealousy… etc. etc. etc.

Satan is the prince of this world.

 

[KindredSoul]

I believe the scenario is impossible, of course, but to play along with the hypothetical nature of the question, it would result in a crisis of faith, to be sure.

If the Church changes Her position on Faith and Morals, in a way that is obviously a real change (and not merely a development of doctrine, which can sometimes look like “change”), then you’re right, this would disprove the Church’s infallibility.

The problem is that Catholicism is only distinct from other branches of Christianity because of its claims to Infallibility. If the Church is “just another church” that is capable of getting it wrong on matters of Faith and Morals, then I’m not sure why I should be Catholic at all. I would find it intellectually dishonest, at best.

Sure, I could “redefine” what it means to be Catholic for myself, but in light of the fact that there are other Christian groups out there notably similar to Catholicism but without the dogma of infallibility (the Orthodox Church especially), it would be much more honest to join one of them instead of remain in a Church Whose definition of Herself is in stark contrast with my own definition of Her…

Honestly, as I hinted, I’d probably be prone to looking into the Orthodox Church; as I understand it, based on what a prolific Orthodox lady once told me (before I became Catholic, I considered Orthodoxy), Orthodoxy works on the basis not of infallibility, but of Tradition, of preserving the way Christians have always believed, so that even IF some patriarch (even the most prestigious one!) were to suddenly try to “change” Church Teaching, the average Orthodox Christian would know to just “ignore it” and keep believing what Christians have believed since day one.

I WOULD consider remaining Catholic, in your hypothetical scenario, IF the Church redefined Herself along those same lines as the Orthodox Church, and said She no longer taught Herself to be Infallible. But then, that would mean that the Pope no longer had the authority to change the teachings on contraceptives, gay marriage, etc., so I would just go on believing those things were wrong, because that’s what Christians have always believed, until this modern age. When faced with the choice between what some modern bishop says (even the bishop of Rome) and what the wisdom of the ancient Christians has unanimously declared for two millennia, it just makes more sense to stand with the ancients, if it’s obvious that Pope is not infallible (which would be the obvious case if he’s changing something so starkly)

So basically I could only remain Catholic, then, if the Church redefined Herself in such a way as that the “new teaching” in your hypothetical scenario would not be binding, and the new definition of Catholic–like Orthodoxy–encouraged us to follow Tradition (rather than the Pope, per se) which would render the whole idea of “changing Church teaching” moot in the first place so that I would just keep believing what I already do, simply nix the doctrine of Infallibility.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

P.S. I realize that the Catholic Church already DOES define Herself as a Church of Tradition, so really this “redefinition” would simply have to do with dropping the “Infallible Part” rather than having to “add” the part about Tradition, since that’s already there.

 

[KindredSoul]

Priestly celibacy is not dogma but a tradition. It can change.

True, so OP I want to point out that if THAT changed, it actually constitutes no problem at all. It’s always important to know the difference between dogma and “small t” tradition (as opposed to large T Tradition, which is in fact dogma). The Church can change traditions and disciplines, but not Tradition/dogma.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

 

[John_Martin]

I’ll begin this thread by saying that, in no way, am I trying to be offensive or am I trying to ridicule anyone. That being said, this could still come off as just that.

I have a question that I want to direct at all of you who fully embrace the Church’s teachings on sexuality and family planning. That is, if the Church changed its position on any of the issues about which it is particularly strident (birth control and priestly celibacy come to mind), how would you react?

It’s something I wonder about because on one hand, those of you who accept these teaching generally accept that the Church is right in all matters of faith and morality. However, you’re also individuals with your own minds who have, for any number of reasons, adopted that worldview as your own.

To put this into context, I’m a lapsed Catholic and an enthusiastic supporter of birth control and gay marriage. So, it’s pretty apparent that I reject papal infallibility. So, for me, it doesn’t cause any upheaval for my worldview if the church changes tack.

What about you who embrace the Church’s authority?

Peter wanted Jesus to go a different direction than he was headed, and our Lord (meaning we are his “obedient” servants and subjects, not “lapsed” from following him), our Lord replied, “Get back behind me, you Satan, you are not on the side of God, but on the side of men; if you or anyone wants to follow behind me, he must take up his cross”

Why are you standing in front of us with your hypothetical proposal to try and get between us and the following of Jesus? You have already stepped away from following him in the people and Church he put in front of us to lead us. So, either get back in line with Tradition or go somewhere else. You are on the side of men, not on the side of this Kingdom established by Christ - His Church.

John Martin

 

[Starrsmother]

I’ll begin this thread by saying that, in no way, am I trying to be offensive or am I trying to ridicule anyone. That being said, this could still come off as just that.

I have a question that I want to direct at all of you who fully embrace the Church’s teachings on sexuality and family planning. That is, if the Church changed its position on any of the issues about which it is particularly strident (birth control and priestly celibacy come to mind), how would you react?

It’s something I wonder about because on one hand, those of you who accept these teaching generally accept that the Church is right in all matters of faith and morality. However, you’re also individuals with your own minds who have, for any number of reasons, adopted that worldview as your own.

To put this into context, I’m a lapsed Catholic and an enthusiastic supporter of birth control and gay marriage. So, it’s pretty apparent that I reject papal infallibility. So, for me, it doesn’t cause any upheaval for my worldview if the church changes tack.

What about you who embrace the Church’s authority?

I left the church for 30+ years and have been back for about 3 years. When I came back I decided --based on things that had lured me away–that I would obey church teaching—. PERIOD!. Thus if the church changes its stand on married priests. I’ll accept it. The same is true of artificial contraception–though I feel that is less likely to change because other than condoms there is no arttifical contraception out there that doesn’t have the potential to be an abortificant…

 

[Allegra]

Priestly celibacy, as others stated, isn’t a matter of faith or doctrine. It isn’t even a universal practice in the Church now. If the Church changed a matter of doctrine, that would be a huge crisis. I guess we’d all have to go to the Orthodoc Churches.

 

[JRKH]

I’ll begin this thread by saying that, in no way, am I trying to be offensive or am I trying to ridicule anyone. That being said, this could still come off as just that.

I have a question that I want to direct at all of you who fully embrace the Church’s teachings on sexuality and family planning. That is, if the Church changed its position on any of the issues about which it is particularly strident (birth control and priestly celibacy come to mind), how would you react?

It’s something I wonder about because on one hand, those of you who accept these teaching generally accept that the Church is right in all matters of faith and morality. However, you’re also individuals with your own minds who have, for any number of reasons, adopted that worldview as your own.

To put this into context, I’m a lapsed Catholic and an enthusiastic supporter of birth control and gay marriage. So, it’s pretty apparent that I reject papal infallibility. So, for me, it doesn’t cause any upheaval for my worldview if the church changes tack.

What about you who embrace the Church’s authority?

You ask how I would react? In obedience to Christ in His Church. It is really that simple.

The Church is not going to make such a change precipitously. There will be discussions and documents issued, so part of my reaction would be to read and listen to the reasons WHY the Church made the changes - and what the changes are specifically.
This last is very important because, as we know, things can get distorted.

Peace
James

 

[pianistclare]

I’ll begin this thread by saying that, in no way, am I trying to be offensive or am I trying to ridicule anyone. That being said, this could still come off as just that.

I have a question that I want to direct at all of you who fully embrace the Church’s teachings on sexuality and family planning. That is, if the Church changed its position on any of the issues about which it is particularly strident (birth control and priestly celibacy come to mind), how would you react?

It’s something I wonder about because on one hand, those of you who accept these teaching generally accept that the Church is right in all matters of faith and morality. However, you’re also individuals with your own minds who have, for any number of reasons, adopted that worldview as your own.

To put this into context, I’m a lapsed Catholic and an enthusiastic supporter of birth control and gay marriage. So, it’s pretty apparent that I reject papal infallibility. So, for me, it doesn’t cause any upheaval for my worldview if the church changes tack.

What about you who embrace the Church’s authority?

Well, since you’re not trying to offend anyone…maybe start by realizing that just because I believe and profess that everything taught by the Catholic Church is true and correct, that I can and do indeed have a mind of my own.
I make this decision freely, and do not let anyone force me into anything. I actually have studied and I UNDERSTAND why the Church teaches thus.
This is a big misconception about organized religion. That people are somehow bullied into belief, that they are “scared” to have a different opinion, and that they are incapable of framing a thought outside of teaching. Nothing could be further from the truth.
If one does not hold to teaching, one should read up on it. Makes sense, no? If you’re interested in medicine, you go to med school. Same with Catholicism. There is a sound explanation for everything. The Catechism is the best place to start. If you want. Don’t want to offend you…LOL

 

[GEddie]

Celibacy of priests is not a doctrine of the Church, which is unchanging. It has only been in force since the 1100s.

The Church could change it, but not with the slash of a Vatican pen, nor easily. The policy has held for almost a millennium because there are good reasons for it. “Being more like the Orthodox”, or “it makes the modern culture uncomfortable,” are not valid reasons to set priestly celibacy aside. A LOT of theological head-to-heads would precede any change by years. It won’t happen next week.

Contraception and gay marriage are entirely different matters; before 1930, contraception was unacceptable to ALL Christians, as was gay marriage until about 20 years ago. In fact, the Church holds that gay marriage is not even unacceptable: It cannot validly happen.

Those positions will change the day the sun turns to seawater.

ICXC NIKA

 

[JRKH]

Well, since you’re not trying to offend anyone…maybe start by realizing that just because I believe and profess that everything taught by the Catholic Church is true and correct, that I can and do indeed have a mind of my own.
I make this decision freely, and do not let anyone force me into anything. I actually have studied and I UNDERSTAND why the Church teaches thus.
This is a big misconception about organized religion. That people are somehow bullied into belief, that they are “scared” to have a different opinion, and that they are incapable of framing a thought outside of teaching. Nothing could be further from the truth.
If one does not hold to teaching, one should read up on it. Makes sense, no? If you’re interested in medicine, you go to med school. Same with Catholicism. There is a sound explanation for everything. The Catechism is the best place to start. If you want. Don’t want to offend you…LOL

Well Said…

Peace
James

 

[KindredSoul]

Contraception and gay marriage are entirely different matters; before 1930, contraception was unacceptable to ALL Christians, as was gay marriage until about 20 years ago. In fact, the Church holds that gay marriage is not even unacceptable: It cannot validly happen.

Those positions will change the day the sun turns to seawater.

ICXC NIKA

My thoughts as well; I played along with the hypothetical scenario in my own post in this thread, but definitely with the caveat that such a thing simply will not happen if the Catholic Church is as She claims to be. As a faithful Catholic, I obviously believe She is, so to ask “What if the Church changed Her moral teachings?” is as far removed from reality as asking me what I would do if I found out that I was really a tentacled telepathic entity from the planet Xorvo in Dimension X, and all this planet Earth/humanity business was just an elaborate dream I’d been having. Can I imagine such a scenario in order to give a “hypothetical” answer? Yes. But do I really believe such a scenario is even plausible? Two guesses, and the first one doesn’t count.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

 

[JapaneseKappa]

It’s something I wonder about because on one hand, those of you who accept these teaching generally accept that the Church is right in all matters of faith and morality. However, you’re also individuals with your own minds who have, for any number of reasons, adopted that worldview as your own.

I wonder if anyone has any good resources on the history of the Church’s position on slavery, that might give you some perspective.

 

[wanderlust]

Thank you all for your responses. I think that the more nuanced approaches to this obedience are very interesting. Lately, the religious people in my life have either been blindly obedient in the case of some Catholics I know or outwardly rejecting reason in the case of my token pentecostal at work.

I had no intention of trying to change anyone’s minds here or trying to get anyone to doubt their beliefs. I just wanted to see the extent or reasoning behind different Catholics’ obedience. Thanks again!

 

[JRKH]

Thank you all for your responses. I think that the more nuanced approaches to this obedience are very interesting. Lately, the religious people in my life have either been blindly obedient in the case of some Catholics I know or outwardly rejecting reason in the case of my token pentecostal at work.

I had no intention of trying to change anyone’s minds here or trying to get anyone to doubt their beliefs. I just wanted to see the extent or reasoning behind different Catholics’ obedience. Thanks again!

You are welcome. It’s been an interesting thread.

As I was reading your post above…and ran across the word “obedience” and for some reason I thought - - really it’s less about obedience and more about embracing". If one truly wishes to be called Catholic (or whatever) they must embrace what the Church teaches. If they cannot do that - mere obedience will not be very satisfying.

Just a thought.

Peace
James