I abortion is murder

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First of all: I am firmly Pro-Life and abhor abortion. Also I have no desire to use violence to further the pro-life movement.

My question is this: CCC states we have the right to use force to protect ourselves and others when we believe life is at stake.

Situation 1: Walking down the street and a man is pointing a gun at the baby about to shoot. I draw my own weapon and fire a shot at the man killing him and saving the baby’s life.

Situation 2: I walk by an abortion clinic where I know a baby will be killed soon, if I run in and start shooting I am a terrorist.

What are Church’s teaching on the immorality of Situation 2? Have I committed a grave sin by using violence to protect fetal life?
 
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church -

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means
 
In situation 1: You should always use the least force necessary. For example, if you had other means to stop him and you choose to shoot him instead you would be gravely sinning.

Situation 2: the problem is, the person “holding the gun” on the baby isn’t the abortion provider, but is rather the mother. Shooting her isn’t going to do you any good… As for the providers, we have much better options. Indeed, such an act would only do grave harm to our cause.
 
sllhouette said:
Situation 2: the problem is, the person “holding the gun” on the baby isn’t the abortion provider, but is rather the mother. Shooting her isn’t going to do you any good… As for the providers, we have much better options. Indeed, such an act would only do grave harm to our cause.
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This makes sense, but think of this: shooting the mother can save the baby if its a late-term abortion. There may be no other way to stop her from killing her child!

Other than that, you are right. The providers are just doing their job which is allowed under the law. The mother is the one ordering the abortion. However, if it is permissible to use force to save a life, it seems it would be appropriate to barge in and beat them all up until they stop, wouldn’t it?
 
sllhouette said:
Situation 2: the problem is, the person “holding the gun” on the baby isn’t the abortion provider, but is rather the mother. Shooting her isn’t going to do you any good… As for the providers, we have much better options. Indeed, such an act would only do grave harm to our cause.
Click to expand...
This makes sense, but think of this: shooting the mother can save the baby if its a late-term abortion. There may be no other way to stop her from killing her child!

Other than that, you are right. The providers are just doing their job which is allowed under the law. The mother is the one ordering the abortion. However, if it is permissible to use force to save a life, it seems it would be appropriate to barge in and beat them all up until they stop, wouldn’t it?

I’m not condoning this, just playing devil’s advocate, so to speak.
 
Just too add a possible (but not likely) scenario.

Say Abortion does become illegal.

Are we as Catholics allowed to put a gun to a woman’s head and make a citizens arrest if say we noticed the abortion was about to take place with full knowledge that this was the person’s intention?
 
Uriah_Betrayed said:
Just too add a possible (but not likely) scenario.

Say Abortion does become illegal.

Are we as Catholics allowed to put a gun to a woman’s head and make a citizens arrest if say we noticed the abortion was about to take place with full knowledge that this was the person’s intention?
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Not necessarily. You can make abortion illegal like parking by a fire hydrant is illegal. You can’t make a citizen’s arrest for parking violations.

If abortion was legally defined as murder, then yes this would be possible in my view.
 
Situation 2: I walk by an abortion clinic where** I know** a baby will be killed soon, if I run in and start shooting I am a terrorist.
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Really? Are you…absolutely sure…and…can guarantee… that there won’t be a change of heart by the pregnant mother…or even…maybe the doctor/nurse/technician who perform/assist in the actual abortion?

In essence you become* pro-choice…you choose to murder someone based on your judgment…not a pro-life* decision in my opinion.

Pax Christi
 
Lancer said:
Really? Are you…absolutely sure…and…can guarantee… that there won’t be a change of heart by the pregnant mother…or even…maybe the doctor/nurse/technician who perform/assist in the actual abortion?

In essence you become* pro-choice…you choose to murder someone based on your judgment…not a pro-life* decision in my opinion.

Pax Christi
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Using this same line of thinking a police officer can witness a kidnapping at gunpoint and here the perpetrator say “i’m going to kill you” and drag the victim into an alley. The police officer doesn’t KNOW the perp won’t have a change of heart at the last second, so he refrains from using deadly force, keeps his weapon holstered, and politely asks the violator to stop so he can cuff him and arrest for kidnapping. 🙂

Waiting for a murder to happen before acting doesn’t seem very pro-life either! Just saying. 🙂 Perhaps its better to use non-deadly force to stop abortions, but force nonetheless. That seems like a more plausible discussion for hypothetical situations…though I don’t condone that either of course!

What I’m saying is that an abortion procedure can be stopped with a nice round of fisticuffs just as effectively as with a pistol, but no lethality is introduced. Would even this lesser level of violence be justified if it was to save a life?
 
We are humans, prone to being mistaken, to assume, and on top of that we cannot know that our actions (regardless of the intentions behind) would yield the ends we intend.

That is why judgment (civil and heavenly) has its procedures and laws.

On both cases I would act in a way that, as far as I know, I would be within the law. Both.
 
Another thing to consider are the long-term consequences of one’s actions. In this case that would mainly be how you are perceived by others because of what you did.

Situation 1: Most likely you are regarded as a hero for saving the baby’s life.

Situation 2: As you said, you’re regarded as a terrorist. Now the argument here is that we shouldn’t care what other people think of us, especially when a life is on the line, but it goes further than that. When people find out you started shooting up a clinic because you’re pro-life it reflects on everyone who is pro-life. People are now more likely to regard pro-lifers as extreme homicidal people and less likely to listen to or believe what pro-lifers have to say on saving and protecting life. This allows the pro-choice movement to entrench itself further and makes abortion less likely to be abolished in the long run.

This would also be the case if one went into a clinic and started beating everyone up.
 
I had this discussion the other day on a Catholic group site. I do not support violence against them at all… There is a human being dying in the process, but unfortunately right now that is legal in this country. The greatest chance we have to change that (and have the biggest impact on saving the lives of children) is to stay with in the limits of the law ourselves, and use the system we have in place right now to get those laws changed. We need grassroot efforts to educate people, national level support for new laws, and extra support for pregnant women that will decrease the demand for abortion in the first place. Killing a doctor is just going to entrench those veiws by getting all of us labeled as extremists and terrorists…
 
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