I am a Catholic who is seriously considering Orthodoxy. For this reason, mostly

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For mt the end of the day, it’s all about where we spend eternity. I have always had a problem with the idea that certain mortal sins can result in being “cast off” from God’s presence. I understand that God doesn’t do it, I do it to myself. But that still isn’t enough to resolve the dilemma I’ve had all my life.

I am the parent of a daughter. There is NOTHING she could ever do that would make me cast her off and not be with her, take care of her, whatever. Nothing. Others might, in fact the whole world could reject her, but I would not. She could murder me in my sleep and I’m sure that wherever I ended up, I would be praying for her. How can it be then, that some divine justice forces God to cast a person off so that they never see anything but darkness for all eternity?

contrast that with the Orthodox teaching about the afterlife. After death, every soul goes to God. Some very saintly people live in the joy of that heaven. For others, though, the presence of God is horrific for them because of the sins they committed during their life. To use the parental example again, it’s like being around my very loving father when I was a child, knowing I had done something very wrong and he knew about it. My father didn’t HAVE to punish me. The fact that I had so let him down was worse than any spanking or grounding I may have received.

To me THAT is the only way any of it makes sense.

I do NOT post this to start any trouble with this hypothesis on this forum. But is am still Catholic (have not begun any conversion process yet) and would like to hear from others, Catholic or Orthodox, any response or rebuttal to this. Any discussion?
 
RKO said:
For mt the end of the day, it’s all about where we spend eternity. I have always had a problem with the idea that certain mortal sins can result in being “cast off” from God’s presence. I understand that God doesn’t do it, I do it to myself. But that still isn’t enough to resolve the dilemma I’ve had all my life.

I am the parent of a daughter. There is NOTHING she could ever do that would make me cast her off and not be with her, take care of her, whatever. Nothing. Others might, in fact the whole world could reject her, but I would not. She could murder me in my sleep and I’m sure that wherever I ended up, I would be praying for her. How can it be then, that some divine justice forces God to cast a person off so that they never see anything but darkness for all eternity?

contrast that with the Orthodox teaching about the afterlife. After death, every soul goes to God. Some very saintly people live in the joy of that heaven. For others, though, the presence of God is horrific for them because of the sins they committed during their life. To use the parental example again, it’s like being around my very loving father when I was a child, knowing I had done something very wrong and he knew about it. My father didn’t HAVE to punish me. The fact that I had so let him down was worse than any spanking or grounding I may have received.

To me THAT is the only way any of it makes sense.

I do NOT post this to start any trouble with this hypothesis on this forum. But is am still Catholic (have not begun any conversion process yet) and would like to hear from others, Catholic or Orthodox, any response or rebuttal to this. Any discussion?
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I kind of had a similar train of thought once. “How can God call us his children yet cast us to hell?” My first error was assuming God casted us to hell. As you stated WE pick hell over eternal life with God.

I believe that you are placing God in a box. You are assuming God has human emotions and thoughts just like you. Are you binding him with your emotions rather than allowing him to be God. I could never allow my son to die for the sins of complete strangers. I am glad it was not up to me 😉

Scripture tells us that some sins are mortal while others are not. It is not a “Catholic” teaching but comes direct from Scripture. If you want to join the Orthodox faith, do it because you feel God is calling you to that faith rather than running away from the Catholic Church. 🙂

But I would reframe from placing God in a box as you are doing. He is beyond your emotions and thoughts.

👍 Much love and prayers coming your way. May you find peace and joy in the Church!
 
aidanbradypop said:
I believe that you are placing God in a box. You are assuming God has human emotions and thoughts just like you. Are you binding him with your emotions rather than allowing him to be God. I could never allow my son to die for the sins of complete strangers. I am glad it was not up to me 😉
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That is a very good point that I am going to think about. Thank you for that response!
 
What specifically are you referring to that doesn’t make sense from Catholicism in relation to whom?
 
While I agree that I find the Orthodox concept of heaven and hell very plausible - I wouldn’t think that God changes his plan for us depending on what church we go to. My intuition is that we go where God wants us to go, even if we do not understand correctly.
 
First, I don’t think the explanation of some Orthodox theologians is intolerable in the Catholic Church–from what I have seen, there is room for differing opinions on the details of the final state. That being said, you also can’t consider the explanation found in the CCC to be heterodox.

Your analogy about your child is a bit flawed: what if your daughter refused to let you take care of her and moved away from you? It’s not mortal sin that damns us–it’s mortal sin plus the obstinate refusal to turn back to God.

Anyway, Christ himself used the same kind of language that you are objecting to–the Catholic Church can’t be faulted for repeating what our Master says. For example:

Luke 13:[27] And he shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. [28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Matt. 25;[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

EDIT: the Orthodox also believe in mortal sins–at least they used to. For example, at their pan-Orthodox Council of Jerusalem in 1672 they taught explicitly about “mortal sin” and “eternal punishment.”
crivoice.org/creeddositheus.html
 
The after life is probably the most complicated thing to ponder and meditate on… at least for me.

That was until I realized the true meaning of Faith and how it can transform our thinking.

Prior to coming back to the CC, I engaged in some very heavy discussion with my Reformed/Protestant brothers. In the 3 years prior to coming back home we studied Revelation and Romans, I don’t think I’ve had a period in my life where I read so much, and I am an avid reader, lol.

In one of the arguments with my brothers, they kept going to the election, predestination subject. I noticed the insistence and persistence on their stance was almost fanatical and obsessive. Because of my work, I started to study their motives. Motive is the driving engine of the mind.

To make a really long story short, one day something clicked on me like never before.

I wanted to make sure that we were all on the same page in regards to the terms we were discussing and going over: justification, sanctification, salvation, etc. But I was overlooking two of the most important ones: Love and Faith. I found myself caught up in legalism and completely looked over the 2 most important saving elements we as people can have.

So I obviously went to 1 Cor 13 for what it says about love and the entire life of our Lord, Jesus Christ/

I then looked over at Faith:

[bibledrb]Hebrews 11:1[/bibledrb]

And it finally dawned on me… What is the purpose of Faith if I need to have everything in writing? If I need to “see” everything?

I came to a cross roads:
  1. I trust Jesus
  2. I don’t trust Jesus
I then asked myself the question: Am I saved?

I came to realize that I don’t need to have this assurance because as long as I Love God with all I have and I Love my neighbor as I love myself and I have Faith in Jesus Christ then it is up to Him. This realization carries an enormous responsibility thou. It means that it has to be on His terms and not mine. It means that I must commit to obedience.

It also made me realize: what if I don’t Love and don’t have Faith? What will happen?

Weeping and gnashing of the teeth… eternal hellfire…

I don’t know where heaven is and I don’t know where hell is. I don’t know how long will I stay in purgatory. That doesn’t matter. What matters is that I Love and have Faith and carry the responsibilities that come with them. I’ll let others wonder and try to make sense of things that are outside human understanding.

After all, God did revealed enough to feed my Faith and did leave a Church to watch over His sheep. And He was awesome enough that He did it while He was on earth! And He was very specific about it as well, all we need to do is read what He said to St. Peter.

In the end, I asked my fighting brethren:
If you can prove that you have assurance of Salvation, then why do you need Faith?

If you have a contract (Bible) that allegedly binds God into saving you, then why do you need Faith?

You either trust Him or you don’t.

There is a Hell and there is a Heaven brother. It doesn’t matter where they are or what they look like. One is good and the other is bad. Why this is? It’s beyond my understanding.

God Bless you on your journey.
 
Genesis315 said:
Your analogy about your child is a bit flawed: what if your daughter refused to let you take care of her and moved away from you? It’s not mortal sin that damns us–it’s mortal sin plus the obstinate refusal to turn back to God.
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I think you guys are helping me. Because I think in terms of simple examples I can understand, I thought of this: If my daughter killed her mother and had no remorse for it, I would probably ASSUME she was mentally ill and would still love her and take care of her as much as possible. However, I am mortal and do not KNOW whether mental illness is mitigating here. God would KNOW. So what you are saying are ONLY those very few who sin and are in a position that they had full knowledge (CCC coming back now) would lose themselves, knowing that they are rejecting God. That makes sense. I still have a personal issue with the “punishement” or “banishment” issue and think the Orthodox are on to something, but the differences are far less than I imagined.

NOW, one more question regarding this issue: Wouldn’t you think that the number of people who commit a sin, knowing that by it they are purposefully and willfully rejecting God is infinitesimally small? And is it possible that those who do NOT believe in God can not knowingly reject him? OK, 2 more questions…
 
RKO said:
NOW, one more question regarding this issue: Wouldn’t you think that the number of people who commit a sin, knowing that by it they are purposefully and willfully rejecting God is infinitesimally small? And is it possible that those who do NOT believe in God can not knowingly reject him? OK, 2 more questions…
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God does not “punish” us as you speak of. We punish ourselves by our sins and freewill to turn away from God. What’s amazing is that God still loves us even when we turn away from Him. Just like you would still love your daughter if she turned away from you!

If I become drunk and drive, I sin! If I get pulled over by a cop and taken to jail, that is not God punishing me but rather a product of my sin.

We all have natural law in our hearts. Someone who believes in God and sins will feel the effects of that sin. The same goes with someone who does not believe in God. They still feel the effects of the sin whether or not the profess a belief in God. Make sense? Those who sin know it is wrong. It is kind of sad the God had to give the Israelites the 10 Commandments lol. You think they would have known all of those things were wrong to do.

My oldest son is 5. When he lies to me, he knows it is wrong. He knows he did something wrong and he is lying to try and avoid any punishment that I place upon him. I do not punish him because I have fallen out of love with him. It is actually the opposite! I punish him because I LOVE him and want him to grow up right and justly.
 
I want to add a bit more to the first sentence I posted above. We sin with the knowledge of what can happen. We pick sin and risk the fires of hell over God. We pick the punishment over the reward.
 
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